but I love this point So glad! The Neo comparison just came to me a couple of days ago and I loved it.
She has no original core she can go searching for. Unlike Echo - who has Echo and Caroline to search for and think about - Dawn has nothing.
Except in some really good fanfiction ;)
But how much is this true for everyone? We are, after all, products of our environment. The difference is - you're talking about an active agent in an environment that influences them. Even identical twins respond differently to their own environment and become different people at the end of the day. Not all eldest children are perfectionists. Not all children react the same way that their parents do.
Nurture vs. Nature is a tricky subject. But I'm suggesting that what happened to Dawn is so far beyond the scope of environmental influence.
Every human has agency - to at least determine how they feel about the circumstances and environment we are in.
I don't think this line of thought isn't interesting... but I think it severely undervalues the complete lack of agency that Dawn has.
Agency is the understanding of actions and consequences as you take action.
Any action that Dawn took before the age of 14(ish) was done without consent, without her understanding or having an active hand in her actions.
First off, I am astonished and thrilled by this meta - and you're really too kind, because I can't believe I've inspired any of this, so definitely honored to be part of the process here. (I remember asking you something about Dawn and free Will but can't remember my original question!)
I admit I haven't seen the Matrix, Dollhouse etc so I was worried that I wouldn't be able to follow the conversation here, but I needn't have been. You lay this out very clearly - wonderful, thoughtful stuff. I hope it's ok to jump in here, I apologize for not having the chance sooner.
Any action that Dawn took before the age of 14(ish) was done without consent, without her understanding or having an active hand in her actions.
And THAT is just amazingly creepy. Even creepier to me is how the implications are totally disregarded not only on the show and in fandom (see my rant upthread - I know you love the Dawn & Spike friendship hon, but it irritates the hell out of me that Dawn exists only to prove Spike's goodness in 99% of Spike & Dawn fanfiction, and is of no interest in and of herself. ugh)
would you really think that a group of peaceful monks are really all that bad when placed next to the government or the Rossum Corporation? And yet, Dawn’s brainwashing goes so far and so deep, shouldn't we think critically of this?
I've wondered for some time why the creation of Dawn and the insertion of false memories isn't considered a violation of agency, on the show or in fandom, in the way that wiping away memories is. Because it seemed to me that the monks were committing a larger violation than Willow, Glory or Angel, just in reverse. (Of course MMV - I've read discussions amoung Angel fans who see his actions re: Buffy in IWRY as incredibly noble and "for her own good". This DOES NOT work for me, obviously.)
I think I've said to you elsewhere that the two characters on btvs (not ats) who are "overwritten" (dolls) to follow the metaphor being used here are Buffy (including on IWRY) and Tara, in terms of number of instances or events onscreen. Whereas Dawn, as you say, is written entirely of whole cloth, which is on another level entirely.
I wondered if vampires fit here (suddenly suffering from memories of their crimes when resouled); but when I thought about it, it's not that vampires don't remember, it's that without the soul they can remember what they've done but don't care about the damage they've wrought.
However, growing up in a conservative Christian environment, the term ‘free will’ is tinged with baggage.
This makes a lot of sense to me. I grew up in a catholic household (although neither conservative or devout at the time) and free will seemed a tricksy beast to me - we supposedly had "free will" in order to "freely" love/obey/worship God, God wants us to chose, blah blah...but we're punished if we fail to "chose correctly" the way God wants us to. I don't know the precise theological or academic definition of "Free will" but that, to my mind, isn't "free" at all; there's still a puppetmaster pulling the strings.
I won't bore you btw by repeating in full my rant to Lynzie upthread about the "canon comics" (which I don't consider canon at all of course); I flipped through the last issue of S9 at the shop the other day. SO MUCH RAGE for bringing up Dawn's Keyness only to make her into a helpless damsel needing to be rescued by Buffy, Willow and Xander with ZERO agency of her own yet again. She exists not only to be rescued but also to prove what swell guys Spike and Xander are. In and of herself she is meaningless and the writers have no interest in her whatsoever. Gross.
(I remember asking you something about Dawn and free Will but can't remember my original question!) It was attached to a fic I think - it took me a while to find again!
I hope it's ok to jump in here, I apologize for not having the chance sooner. Hope you know that it's always okay to jump in and the conversation will wait for you!
but it irritates the hell out of me that Dawn exists only to prove Spike's goodness in 99% of Spike & Dawn fanfiction I'm going to reiterate: that's not canon (to me) and I really think that you should read the next meta in this series and get back to me. The idea that this happens boggle my mind. And I hate fandom for you. But also - this relationship is *legitimately* important to Dawn and not just to him within canon and is relevant to her development, so the fact that fandom fucked this relationship up for you pisses me off. But I don't buy it? And I ignore factions of fandom that prioritize males over females (straight up).
I highly encourage everyone to ignore the places in fandom that are negative :)
I don't know the precise theological or academic definition of "Free will" but that, to my mind, isn't "free" at all; there's still a puppetmaster pulling the strings. Yes. Free Will infers that there is a puppetmaster that has "allowed" agency to come forth. Which is exactly the case for Dawn? She is only 'allowed' agency within her narrative once the puppetmaster decides to leave.
OMG I CANNOT WITH COMICS!CANON PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT IT ARGH.
So glad! The Neo comparison just came to me a couple of days ago and I loved it.
She has no original core she can go searching for.
Unlike Echo - who has Echo and Caroline to search for and think about - Dawn has nothing.
Except in some really good fanfiction ;)
But how much is this true for everyone? We are, after all, products of our environment.
The difference is - you're talking about an active agent in an environment that influences them. Even identical twins respond differently to their own environment and become different people at the end of the day.
Not all eldest children are perfectionists. Not all children react the same way that their parents do.
Nurture vs. Nature is a tricky subject. But I'm suggesting that what happened to Dawn is so far beyond the scope of environmental influence.
Every human has agency - to at least determine how they feel about the circumstances and environment we are in.
I don't think this line of thought isn't interesting... but I think it severely undervalues the complete lack of agency that Dawn has.
Agency is the understanding of actions and consequences as you take action.
Any action that Dawn took before the age of 14(ish) was done without consent, without her understanding or having an active hand in her actions.
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I admit I haven't seen the Matrix, Dollhouse etc so I was worried that I wouldn't be able to follow the conversation here, but I needn't have been. You lay this out very clearly - wonderful, thoughtful stuff. I hope it's ok to jump in here, I apologize for not having the chance sooner.
Any action that Dawn took before the age of 14(ish) was done without consent, without her understanding or having an active hand in her actions.
And THAT is just amazingly creepy. Even creepier to me is how the implications are totally disregarded not only on the show and in fandom (see my rant upthread - I know you love the Dawn & Spike friendship hon, but it irritates the hell out of me that Dawn exists only to prove Spike's goodness in 99% of Spike & Dawn fanfiction, and is of no interest in and of herself. ugh)
would you really think that a group of peaceful monks are really all that bad when placed next to the government or the Rossum Corporation? And yet, Dawn’s brainwashing goes so far and so deep, shouldn't we think critically of this?
I've wondered for some time why the creation of Dawn and the insertion of false memories isn't considered a violation of agency, on the show or in fandom, in the way that wiping away memories is. Because it seemed to me that the monks were committing a larger violation than Willow, Glory or Angel, just in reverse. (Of course MMV - I've read discussions amoung Angel fans who see his actions re: Buffy in IWRY as incredibly noble and "for her own good". This DOES NOT work for me, obviously.)
I think I've said to you elsewhere that the two characters on btvs (not ats) who are "overwritten" (dolls) to follow the metaphor being used here are Buffy (including on IWRY) and Tara, in terms of number of instances or events onscreen. Whereas Dawn, as you say, is written entirely of whole cloth, which is on another level entirely.
I wondered if vampires fit here (suddenly suffering from memories of their crimes when resouled); but when I thought about it, it's not that vampires don't remember, it's that without the soul they can remember what they've done but don't care about the damage they've wrought.
However, growing up in a conservative Christian environment, the term ‘free will’ is tinged with baggage.
This makes a lot of sense to me. I grew up in a catholic household (although neither conservative or devout at the time) and free will seemed a tricksy beast to me - we supposedly had "free will" in order to "freely" love/obey/worship God, God wants us to chose, blah blah...but we're punished if we fail to "chose correctly" the way God wants us to. I don't know the precise theological or academic definition of "Free will" but that, to my mind, isn't "free" at all; there's still a puppetmaster pulling the strings.
I won't bore you btw by repeating in full my rant to Lynzie upthread about the "canon comics" (which I don't consider canon at all of course); I flipped through the last issue of S9 at the shop the other day. SO MUCH RAGE for bringing up Dawn's Keyness only to make her into a helpless damsel needing to be rescued by Buffy, Willow and Xander with ZERO agency of her own yet again. She exists not only to be rescued but also to prove what swell guys Spike and Xander are. In and of herself she is meaningless and the writers have no interest in her whatsoever. Gross.
Reply
It was attached to a fic I think - it took me a while to find again!
I hope it's ok to jump in here, I apologize for not having the chance sooner.
Hope you know that it's always okay to jump in and the conversation will wait for you!
but it irritates the hell out of me that Dawn exists only to prove Spike's goodness in 99% of Spike & Dawn fanfiction
I'm going to reiterate: that's not canon (to me) and I really think that you should read the next meta in this series and get back to me. The idea that this happens boggle my mind. And I hate fandom for you. But also - this relationship is *legitimately* important to Dawn and not just to him within canon and is relevant to her development, so the fact that fandom fucked this relationship up for you pisses me off. But I don't buy it? And I ignore factions of fandom that prioritize males over females (straight up).
I highly encourage everyone to ignore the places in fandom that are negative :)
I don't know the precise theological or academic definition of "Free will" but that, to my mind, isn't "free" at all; there's still a puppetmaster pulling the strings.
Yes. Free Will infers that there is a puppetmaster that has "allowed" agency to come forth. Which is exactly the case for Dawn? She is only 'allowed' agency within her narrative once the puppetmaster decides to leave.
OMG I CANNOT WITH COMICS!CANON PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT IT ARGH.
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