Perusing Penises in the Park (no, seriously) and some street harassment stories

[khalinche]

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ETA 16/06/09Phew, what a load of comments! I really appreciate everyone's contributions to this, and am very glad to say that it's all been respectful and mutually supportive and especially the comments by men have been thoughtful and humble and generally something to be

Comments

[jinxremoving]

Damn.

I think your post speaks to most women's experiences. I also think that I don't encounter harassment anywhere near as often as I used to, and my feeling is that it's because I don't present as femme, while not presenting as butch enough to attract homophobic attention. I don't know if this sounds plausible to you (and I mean you, as someone who knows me in person), or whether it seems too simplistic, but I certainly remember that unwanted male attention was a lot more of a given back when I wore dresses. It wasn't like it was a nightmare every day, but even doing simple things like walking down the street past a group of men, you could expect them to stop talking and make it clear that they were watching you as you passed by. And then one day when a workman came into my home and went overboard on the leering, that was kind of the turning point.

(So as an aside, I think my decision not to wear dresses nowadays, while largely about chosen gender expression, is complicated by those experiences. I also resent that how I dress

[khalinche]

No, it sounds plausible enough and chimes with a post another LJ-friend (who can identify herself if she wants, I'm unclear on whether it's cool or not) made about normative femme dressing and how she always seemed to be harassed when she had an outfit on which showed her body off

[mrs_leroy_brown]

If people cringe at overshare, they should have *read* the before-the-cut text! Though I often don't post things because I wonder what the reaction will be, I worry about eye-rolling and so on, but I suppose we need to remember you can't stop folk from thinking thoughts.

The post you quote was brought to my attention by a guy who got involved with the discussion, so I've read a male-not-the-OP post and the female not-the-OP post and whoa, so much there. Thanks for adding further to the discussion.

[ceciley]

That's interesting, about dresses - one of the things I find most depressing/upsetting about harrassment in the street is that I find it very unpredictable - so sometimes if I'm dressed up, I'll get it, and sometimes if I'm just wearing a hoody and a long skirt or whatever, too. I guess there is a bit of a pattern - if I wear short shorts, I get it more - but I guess I feel like, if the pattern was clearer, I would consider altering the way I dres slightly to avoid harrassment, but in my experience its too random for that to work. Which really fucks me off, because often the way I dress reflects the way I feel, obviously, so if I'm feeling shit I'll be dressed grungily and then I'll get shouted at anyway, and sometimes its possible to be all like, 'oh, fuck you', but not so much if I'm feeling a bit shit anyway, you know?

[cos]

(Here via cetera's post, though I notice we have a few friends on common as well)

It's not just that men get harassed less often, it's also that some of the very same things that are harassment when a man does them to a woman, are not harassment when done the other way 'round. Which is exactly because of this "discrepancy of lived experience" you're describing here. That discrepancy sets up a discrepancy of context and perception in parallel with it

[khalinche]

That's a very good point and one that I didn't think to include. I'm sure it is a root cause of men being dismissive when women try to say how discomfiting and annoying unwanted attention is. I'm sure there are situations where men are made uncomfortable when having to deal with unwanted attention from women, but it's not often as directly scary, it's much less frequent and it's seldom actually obscene.

That said, when I lived in Bolivia I got a _lot_ of attention, as a white foreigner, as did a male researcher I knew. Much as the catcalls and unwanted suitors I got used to annoy me (and it was constant, much worse than in the UK) I think he also had a hard time because women used to limpet onto him hoping for a foreign boyfriend. I at least had the liberty to tell men to go away unapologetically. He had to be diplomatic and kind in getting rid of his female 'admirers'. I didn't envy him. But that's a really different set of inequalities, with the icky dynamics that gulfs in racial and economic privilege cause.

[jinxremoving]

Yes. And I don't know why it's so hard for some men to recognise the difference, as you do. Occasionally men have advised things like "well, if someone else is pleased by my appearance, then I don't see any harm". I guess maybe in their world, everybody always operates with the best of intentions.

[cos]

I guess maybe in their world, everybody always operates with the best of intentions.

It isn't even that. Whatever these would-be suitors' intentions are, "best" or not, they're not so scary. So we don't have to worry about them in the same way. We can let their intentions be theirs, not our problem, as long as they don't do something scary or harmful to us, which they mostly don't. I think it's a big part of the discrepancy of experience

[doe_witch]

I really liked reading this entry; it echoes many of my feelings almost exactly. I have managed to avoid ever living in an environment where harassment of this nature was as common as what you describe, but it's still something I'm familiar with and persistently angry about. I identify as genderqueer but I am female-bodied and have never had any tolerance for that. I have always loathed how dehumanized I feel under even the most cover leer. The most disturbing thing that happened to me was when I was in Russia, walking back to my host family after seeing a ballet, and I was in dress clothes with an open jacket and high heels; it was quite late at night but still bright out (the white nights). I walked past one of the few guys outdoors that night and he gave me this look and even though all he said was zdravstvuy dyevushka (basically hey lady) it was so obvious just who or what he thought I was. All I said to him was nyet. No.

He asked me why, before I walked away at full speed. In retrospect I still hate that fucking drunk dick.

[khalinche]

Thank you.

It's very difficult to convey how creeped out you can feel by someone going, 'Alright darling, how're you?'. It sounds so innocuous in the retelling. But if you have a gut instinct that you're in danger, it's always best to follow it: instinct is valuable in keeping you safe. And it sounds daft to say to people, 'I had this really bad feeling'.

Something I didn't say much in this post, for trying to lay out matter-of-factly concrete examples of getting hassle, is how nasty you can feel after someone approaches you. It can be dehumanising and objectifying, and I'm not a sensitive wallflower who's crushed by unkind words: I'm pretty robust and no-nonsense, and I feel icky and annoyed afterwards. So thanks for pointing that out.

[megamole]

Hmmm. I'm originally from Yorkshire, where people, even now, call each other "luv" without really thinking about it. Some may interpret this as a dangerous advance each time it's said. Yes, it all depends on context, but this is something of a shame.

[khalinche]

I think if you read the comments upthread there's a fairly firm consensus that one is able to tell instinctively whether a 'hello luv' or 'hello darlin'' or 'alright' is well-intended and friendly or the first overture of a creep. It's not really explainable, you just learn to listen to your gut.

[obandsoller]

Last year near the uni library I was called a pakki by some random bloke as he was walking past me, when I turned round he asked "What are you looking at?" or something like that. I just carried on my way, and shortly thereafter phoned a friend so I could go WTF?! at her.

That really shook me up and surprised me, because nothing like that had happened to me for ages. I felt things had got a lot better for people like me from when I was younger, and they probably have, but I don't know how much of my feeling that is just down to me being insulated in a safe environment.

Actually, I do very occasionally get hassled, and at the moment when it's happening I feel it is connected to race (but you can't know). Being bothered in the street is something I associate with being a lot younger, and when it does happen I feel like I've suddenly regressed back to that time.

Part of the reason that it affects me so when it does happen is that I really don't have to deal with things like this very often.

[khalinche]

Euch. I'm glad that didn't escalate, but the whole 'what are you looking at' thing is such a blatant, intimidating way to take away your right to respond, because it's like, 'I'm looking at a racist wanker' would be an invitation to a fight.

I'm glad to hear it doesn't happen as much as it used to, but it's still out of order that it happens at all.

Being bothered in the street is something I associate with being a lot younger, and when it does happen I feel like I've suddenly regressed back to that time.I think that's the case with most abuse/assault survivors, especially those of us who went through it when we were young. The most horrible part of harassment or abuse for me is the loss of control: I've made my life in such a way that I don't let abusive or cruel people close enough to me to hurt me, and so having someone on the street break into that is a horrible reminder of vulnerability and can take me right back to being ten or eleven and just having no say in how I was treated. It's probably why I always make a point of

[pfy]

This is very well written. And yes, I can completely believe that you and other women get that much crap (and fear of possible crap) on a regular basis.

When someone writes "men do X", it is easy to take that to mean "all men do X". I can understand why someone would feel unfairly maligned, even though I also agree that saying so doesn't lead to useful discussion. I think you have largely avoided the problem here by explaining things with clarity, wit, and calmness - certainly your post left me thoughtful rather than defensive.

Today it's the story of what it's like to live with the constant possibility of having your appearance or person commented on, loudly, by strangers, and of being on your guard many times a day.

I can empathise to some extent. That description exactly fits the year or so I lived in Gloucester. Extrapolating that experience to "most places, most of the time" is a depressing thought, given that I felt like I was living in some godawful cross between Royston Vasey and Innsmouth.

I would be interested to hear if

[khalinche]

Thank you, you are lovely as ever.

I've had a very drunk young lady latch onto me on the Tube and try very insistently to kiss me, all the way from Bank to Mile End. She happened to be one of the most gorgeous women I have ever seen in my life, but the sheer weirdness of it meant I had more of an 'smile politely and edge away' response than anything.

Well, that makes you one of the men cereta was asking about, who _wouldn't_ take advantage of someone who was too drunk to know better. But maybe she thought you were also the most gorgeous man she'd ever met! You might have just left her your phone number for when she sobered up.

[khalinche]

There are 16 commenters on this entry so far and you are the only straight/cis male among them. (I'm not counting cos because he was directed from the OP). What do you think of that?

[pfy]

If you're asking me to speculate about other people's motives for not commenting, I think it would be very presumptious of me to do so