Perusing Penises in the Park (no, seriously) and some street harassment stories

[khalinche]

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ETA 16/06/09Phew, what a load of comments! I really appreciate everyone's contributions to this, and am very glad to say that it's all been respectful and mutually supportive and especially the comments by men have been thoughtful and humble and generally something to be

Comments

[cos]

I guess maybe in their world, everybody always operates with the best of intentions.

It isn't even that. Whatever these would-be suitors' intentions are, "best" or not, they're not so scary. So we don't have to worry about them in the same way. We can let their intentions be theirs, not our problem, as long as they don't do something scary or harmful to us, which they mostly don't. I think it's a big part of the discrepancy of experience.

As to why it's so hard for some men to recognize the difference: Because it's effectively invisible unless they've had conversations about it and were shown. I don't think it's very likely I'd have just seen this, on my own. I learned it from others before I could see it. And it's different from a lot of things we learn from others because it seems to contradict direct personal experience, at first. It takes some more delving to figure out how it's possible for this to be true despite the fact that I've lived in what I think is the same world, alongside women, all along, and never seen or felt this myself. So that is why, I think, a lot of men don't see this: it's invisible, and their personal experience shows them a different world that seems to contradict it.

[khalinche]

So well-put! Thank you for giving your side of things.

And with your contributions, I keep wondering where the fuck are all the other men? pfy is the only cisgendered, straight man on my friendslist who has commented here - everyone else is cis-female, trans and/or queer. I feel like echoing cereta again - where are the men? This is a conversation all of us need to be having, not just those of us who are on the receiving end of harassment. There is value in sharing our stories with each other and drawing strength from that, but it's not the same as actually knowing that we're getting through to men by the process you describe, and that is why I made this post!

[cos]

I think your post is a great contribution to the process of getting through, and I'm sure I'll be linking to it from time to time for years.

[khalinche]

*smile* thank you.

[libellum]

I'm slightly uncomfortable with the idea that queer men don't count, since that disqualifies a lot of my male friends and one of my partners! There is no reason for queer men to be more innately feminist than straight men, it's just that they're likely to be more familiar with this kind of experience.

I think a lot of guys who don't want to make things worse are reluctant to say anything in case they say the wrong thing. Not that saying "This was really well written, I'm so sorry this still happens to women" is particularly hard, but I'd rather they weren't saying anything than saying some of the stuff they could be saying.

[khalinche]

Sorry, I don't mean to give the impression that queer and trans men don't count. I put it that way because it seems to me that queer men are much less likely to carry out this kind of behaviour and they and trans men are much more likely to be on the receiving end of harassment and violence than cis and straight men. I was aiming this post at the kind of person who has trouble understanding or empathising with a constant experience of harassment, because they don't go through it themselves.

Yes, I see your second point too, and why it might be seen to be a good thing. My worry is that it's indicative of lots of men scrolling straight past this post when they saw that it was about sexual harassment and assault because it's automatically classified as a 'woman thing' to them, and not something they need to be thinking or talking about.

[blue_mai]

there's an overtly gay guy who i used to work with who paws women in a really unpleasant way. he seems to think that because he's gay, it's ok. No, i don't like the way you drag your hand across my back, and it has not nearly as much to do with whether you're gay or not, as you think. Similarly, married men. The ones who think that because they're 'safe' ie. they're not trying to get in your pants, they can get away with acting inappropriately. It kind of goes back to the good intentions argument. Largely, i don't care about intentions - i just don't like being treated like meat or property and the male-female dynamics make me uncomfortable (i'm much more tolerant of women touching me). I suppose in that way it is quite disassociated from fear of rape, where perception of intentions is more important.

[khalinche]

Come to think of it, I have a gay male friend who is pretty bad for groping me, too, and has historically been bad at understanding that 'no - just no, really, no' applies to him too. He's gotten better, though.

[jinxremoving]

This discussion makes me think of a drag queen whose show I watched, uncomfortably, for about ten minutes before I bailed. A significant chunk of her show seemed to involve groping women and making inappropriate comments about them, and if they got embarrassed it was just all part of the show, wasn't it? She also came on to a man during the performance, but by contrast her behaviour didn't seem as intrusive with him and plus he seemed more keen to actually participate. I don't think I've encountered misogyny all that much on the gay scene, but that night felt like a low point.

[pans_writing]

Part of the reason - for me anyway - that I haven't responded to this post yet is that saying "This was really well written, I'm so sorry this still happens to women" doesn't add to the discussion. What it does do is open me up to abuse from the (admittedly few) people who will jump on that comment and say "This wouldn't still happen if guys like you spoke up". Which is true - and I do speak up when I see things like this happening.

[khalinche]

Thank you for commenting anyway.

I don't think anyone would be so presumptuous as to say 'this abuse wouldn't happen if you, pans_writing and guys like you spoke up against it'. Nothing is going to stop this entirely apart from a huge satellite-mounted mind ray aimed at Western Europe which would scientifically eradicate misogyny by rewiring everyone's brains. What I'm aiming to do here is to give men examples of quite how common it is and how it affects us, so that you can be aware of your own actions and have a clearer understanding of what it's like to be female and have to put up with a barrage of harassment all the time. Just having a man accept that and take it on board without being dismissive is, frankly, a victory. So, er, thanks for not being dismissive.

[pans_writing]

Apologies - I don't think I came across quite as I meant to with that. I understand what you're trying to do, and I completely support it. And I'll leave it there.

[khalinche]

Ah, but you are in Spokane, right? So the mind-control ray would only have an effect on Europeans (like myself) who regularly go to Washington State :-)

[khalinche]

My dad and grandparents live in the San Juans. I go there about once a year - I really love it. Spokane is pretty too, though, especially the downtown with all those lovely old Art Deco buildings. I'm a big Sherman Alexie fan, too.