Chuck wrote that Sam would give in and have sex with Lilith. The difference between this prophecy and all the others is that Sam and Dean knew about it beforehand - they had time to digest the information, plan, and talk to each other. That made all the difference: Sam tricked Lilith and tried to kill her with the knife rather than giving in and Dean was able to find a way to make her go away (at least for the time beingAlso, Chuck's account completely misunderstood Sam's reason for having sex with Lilith. Chuck described it as demonic passion, but even if Sam had followed through, it had nothing to do with passion, it would have been sealing a deal. I actually believe that Sam would have acted the same way with or without warning, the only thing that would have been different would have been the Devil's Trap that Lilith easily uncovered. Otherwise, I think Sam would have tried to kill her, found her invulnerable to his powers. She would have then offered the deal, and he would have pretended to accept in order to get to the knife
( ... )
Also, Chuck's account completely misunderstood Sam's reason for having sex with Lilith
Excellent point. Chuck is human and while he may be seeing a blow-by-blow account in his visions, he's interpreting those visions through human experiences when he actually writes them down. I didn't believe that Sam would give in to Lilith either.
I am very very pleased to read this meta! I'm glad someone is thinking about free will and seeing how it is a, possibly the, positive force that the boys have going for them when so much seems to be stacked against them
( ... )
Angels totally have free will - that's why some rebel, some came to earth to marry mortals, and some (like Anna) fell. The most important part of their existence, however, is their obedience. Free will isn't much tolerated for them. Castiel is definitely toeing the line, but I think his actions were more of an interpretation of the will of God than an act in defiance of it.
Quite an excellent meta! And you included Triumph, who I'd forgotten was used in the show. I like that song, I hope they use it again...especially this season or next because it fits our boys.
I think what we saw was exercising free will within the framework of destiny. Neither are absolutes. But I don't think the angels can win without the humanity Dean and Sam bring to the fight, and I think who ever is in charge knows this. I do hope it is God caling the shots! I do like that some entity realizes there is value to Sam existing. B/c of course I believe only the brothers together will save the world.
And no, there won't be a happy ending for the Winchesters, and I think this is the sadness Chuck saw. I think they will be a sacrifice, but that their sacrifice will save humankind.
I do like that some entity realizes there is value to Sam existing.
It actually reminds me a bit of how Azazel completely discounted Dean - he thought Dean was not a threat at all, making him drop him guard and that was his downfall. With the exception of Ruby (and possibly Lilith, although she's mostly been focused on breaking seals lately), both sides seem to have discounted Sam and that's never a good idea...
Yeh, Alastair wasn't counting on Sam being any stronger than the average human. That was as dumb a move as Azazel dicounting Dean! The angels are way too over focused on Dean being the only one who can end the apcolypse.
Alastair probably thought Sam was just some reckless poser who could exorcise the less powerful demons but couldn't touch a big bad like himself. Oops...
I think Castiel is starting to get that Sam's more than an unfortunate complication in stopping the Apocalypse but hasn't quite grasped just how much the Winchester brothers need each other.
I'd been kicking these sort of ideas in my head since the show, and I think you encapsulated pretty much what I was thinking in this meta. You made some very fine points here that I hadn't really considered and the use of the song was very well done.
The thing that really struck me about the concept of destiny and prophecy as shown in the episode was this old Buffy quote about prophecy being a tricky thing. Chuck's visions, much like Sam's, seemed to be flashes of random events without any context. Chuck is able to fill them in enough to write a story, but that is based on a mix of conjecture and imagination, as evidenced by the whole fire-y demonic passion thing. Plus, there are things he doesn't see, like Dean coming to get him. He thinks he knows how the story ends because he caught a glimpse of, but, in reality, he's just jumping in in the middle.
Chuck is able to fill them in enough to write a story, but that is based on a mix of conjecture and imagination, as evidenced by the whole fire-y demonic passion thing.
Chuck's written prophecies are indeed based on a very human interpretation of what seem to be disjointed dreams that, until this episode, he never really understood (I wonder if he'll rewrite the whole Sam/Lilith hookup now that it hasn't happened). Just like not adding in the part about the demon blood, he's taking liberties with how to present his visions and might not be as reliable a narrator as the angels are making him out to be.
I'll go you one better. By exercising editorial restraint, he's had an effect on events. If the demon blood had been in the manuscripts, the angels would know about it. And so would Dean, now. That could substantially change things.
I like the way you've used the song to frame this discussion. There's interesting things to think about here.
Since when does destiny need a plan B?
That's a great line. Re: the demons, I don't know that they're aware of destiny any more than humans are, they simply interpret, just like we do. Also, given that Castiel has told Dean several times that they know some things but not others, I think the question is "who really has the full picture on destiny"?
One of the things you highlight is the difference between Sam's psychic visions and Chuck's. I'd argue that part of the difference is also advance notice. For example, if you know some things an hour before they happen, you can do something about it. For others, it makes no difference, you'd have to have known about it for years. The other difference is being able to communicate that vision to the people who need to know it. For example, in Nightmares, Sam saved two people, but lost two others. Does that make some deaths more destined than others?
One of the things you highlight is the difference between Sam's psychic visions and Chuck's. I'd argue that part of the difference is also advance notice. For example, if you know some things an hour before they happen, you can do something about it. For others, it makes no difference, you'd have to have known about it for years. The other difference is being able to communicate that vision to the people who need to know it. For example, in Nightmares, Sam saved two people, but lost two others. Does that make some deaths more destined than others?
The key may not be advanced notice but rather a complete understanding of the situation. For example, in Simon Said, Sam and Dean focused their search on Andy the second they realized he was a psy-kid; because they didn't give serious thought to what else could be going on if it wasn't Andy two people were left vulnerable to Webber's attacks and died.
The Nightmare deaths were more about the wrong choices being made. Dean, despite past experience, tried to write off Sam's vision as just
( ... )
Those are great examples, as I think they show the use of past experience to dictate actions. In the case of Max, they weren't expecting a human cause for the problems, so they came to investigate him too late in the game. In Andy's case, they assume they have a Max situation again and are only partially right. They do, but it doesn't happen to be Andy.
Plus, I'm not sure, but did Sam ever see himself in his visions? I know he saw Dean more than once, but it seems to me significant somehow that he could never get that perspective. For that matter, I'm still wondering what the purpose of Sam's visions were at all.
Honestly, what the heck with Sam's visions? Where exactly did they go? I sometimes wonder if they were a type of telepathy with other psychic kids. Maybe a way to bring them together. Maybe they would have grown into something stronger and more controlled if Sam embraced them and practiced....or maybe they were just destined to morph into demon control like Ava's did. Sam's powers are somewhat a type of demon control.
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Excellent point. Chuck is human and while he may be seeing a blow-by-blow account in his visions, he's interpreting those visions through human experiences when he actually writes them down. I didn't believe that Sam would give in to Lilith either.
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Angels totally have free will - that's why some rebel, some came to earth to marry mortals, and some (like Anna) fell. The most important part of their existence, however, is their obedience. Free will isn't much tolerated for them. Castiel is definitely toeing the line, but I think his actions were more of an interpretation of the will of God than an act in defiance of it.
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Thank you!
The MST3K base is from dragynville - I picked it up a long long time back and never had the inspiration to use if for an icon until now. ;)
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I think what we saw was exercising free will within the framework of destiny. Neither are absolutes. But I don't think the angels can win without the humanity Dean and Sam bring to the fight, and I think who ever is in charge knows this. I do hope it is God caling the shots! I do like that some entity realizes there is value to Sam existing. B/c of course I believe only the brothers together will save the world.
And no, there won't be a happy ending for the Winchesters, and I think this is the sadness Chuck saw. I think they will be a sacrifice, but that their sacrifice will save humankind.
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It actually reminds me a bit of how Azazel completely discounted Dean - he thought Dean was not a threat at all, making him drop him guard and that was his downfall. With the exception of Ruby (and possibly Lilith, although she's mostly been focused on breaking seals lately), both sides seem to have discounted Sam and that's never a good idea...
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I think Castiel is starting to get that Sam's more than an unfortunate complication in stopping the Apocalypse but hasn't quite grasped just how much the Winchester brothers need each other.
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The thing that really struck me about the concept of destiny and prophecy as shown in the episode was this old Buffy quote about prophecy being a tricky thing. Chuck's visions, much like Sam's, seemed to be flashes of random events without any context. Chuck is able to fill them in enough to write a story, but that is based on a mix of conjecture and imagination, as evidenced by the whole fire-y demonic passion thing. Plus, there are things he doesn't see, like Dean coming to get him. He thinks he knows how the story ends because he caught a glimpse of, but, in reality, he's just jumping in in the middle.
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This! Very excellent observation!
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Chuck's written prophecies are indeed based on a very human interpretation of what seem to be disjointed dreams that, until this episode, he never really understood (I wonder if he'll rewrite the whole Sam/Lilith hookup now that it hasn't happened). Just like not adding in the part about the demon blood, he's taking liberties with how to present his visions and might not be as reliable a narrator as the angels are making him out to be.
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Since when does destiny need a plan B?
That's a great line. Re: the demons, I don't know that they're aware of destiny any more than humans are, they simply interpret, just like we do. Also, given that Castiel has told Dean several times that they know some things but not others, I think the question is "who really has the full picture on destiny"?
One of the things you highlight is the difference between Sam's psychic visions and Chuck's. I'd argue that part of the difference is also advance notice. For example, if you know some things an hour before they happen, you can do something about it. For others, it makes no difference, you'd have to have known about it for years. The other difference is being able to communicate that vision to the people who need to know it. For example, in Nightmares, Sam saved two people, but lost two others. Does that make some deaths more destined than others?
Sam facing his ( ... )
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The key may not be advanced notice but rather a complete understanding of the situation. For example, in Simon Said, Sam and Dean focused their search on Andy the second they realized he was a psy-kid; because they didn't give serious thought to what else could be going on if it wasn't Andy two people were left vulnerable to Webber's attacks and died.
The Nightmare deaths were more about the wrong choices being made. Dean, despite past experience, tried to write off Sam's vision as just ( ... )
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Plus, I'm not sure, but did Sam ever see himself in his visions? I know he saw Dean more than once, but it seems to me significant somehow that he could never get that perspective. For that matter, I'm still wondering what the purpose of Sam's visions were at all.
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