General Sam meta and thoughts on S4

[ginzai]

So I think I need to rewatch S4. As in, all of it. From Lazarus to Lucifer and yes, that unfortunately includes Yellow Fever and ASS and CAIADB. There are just so many interesting themes and nuances that keep getting brought up and even each of the MOTW throwaway episodes does something to refer to the overall mytharc in some way or another,

Comments

[ginzai]

*hugs* Your fic deserves recommendations! All across the board, bb, it's that good.

I know what you mean by putting meta into fic. It gets to the point where you just want to be all "READ THIS STORY, IT EXPLAINS MY VIEWS ON EVERYTHING" instead of having to retype everything out again. *g*

[leelust]

Interesting. I thought the same about S4 dynamics for Sam.
I just thought that all it started a lot earlier than 404 and his passion to save Jack wasn't a wish of saving human being but an effort to save someone who represented Sam himself. I doubt he'd have that passion if Jack's case wouldn't remind him of himself.
Also i don't see ROHDWIB as analogy to Ruby. ROHDWIB was threatened Jack's wife's life and Ruby never threatened Sam's life (or openly threatened Dean's life if we consider that it could still interest Sam). The choice Sam made was darker and more dangerous than Jack's. And circumstances weren't so cruel for him when he made that choice (no real danger to Sam or someone he loved).
I saw Sam's part as good addict story line when the subject is more and more distancing himself from others and is more and more sure that it's him who's always right.

The overall theme of 4x14 is how you can love someone but no longer know them and be miserable in their companyFrom Sam's POV? Maybe. From general POV? No. I didn't see there any

[ginzai]

I think I didn't make my thoughts on Sam and Jack clear enough. I totally agree that the reason Sam was so desperate to save Jack was because their situations were so similar. Dean pointed it out in the episode itself and I fully think he was right.

And it's true too that ROHDWIB (I probably should look his name up) isn't an exact match for Ruby, but I maintain that the circumstances are very much the same there: both think a loved one is dead, both allow themselves to be "transformed" in a period of rage and grief, and both basically then ignore the fact that their loved one is, in fact, alive. The transformation takes them past the point of caring for their respective loved ones; their "death" was the catalyst, but once the change started to occur, it almost became meaningless. So in that regard, ROHDWIB is more akin perhaps to Lilith than to Ruby, by acting as the force that "killed" Jack's wife and just like Lilith and Sam, Jack winds up being the force that kills his wife's "murderer".

I think though that it's when the

[impulsiveanswer]

Very interesting meta. You're right in that Sam spent much of S4 lying to himself and how that was played out in different characters. I do have some points of debate...

Some of it is very much out in the open and one of those themes that most interests me is Sam's general growing sense of apathy with humanity as a whole. We move from the Sam who was so desperate to save Jackin 4x04 to the 4x15!Sam, who lied with a straight face to the dead boy Cole in order to manipulate him into helping them and who honestly believed that the rules for the rest of mankind no longer apply to him (or Dean).

The look on Sam's face when he lied to Cole in 4.15 showed just how bad he felt about lying to the kid (and I don't think it was necessarily completely wrong for him to lie, because in that situation time was of the essence and the kid wasn't showing any signs of being reasoned with). That whole episode wasn't so much about his apathy with humanity but his new comfort with a morally gray area and his willingness to believe that it's all right

1/2

[ginzai]

Debate? I love debate! Debate away! *g*

The look on Sam's face when he lied to Cole in 4.15 showed just how bad he felt about lying to the kid

I'm not sure I read quite as much regret into Sam's expression as you do. To me it was more distaste - it was a job he didn't want to be doing, but distaste for being in an unfortunate position is different than outright regretting it. I see a huge measure of apathy in regards to humanity in Sam's actions there. Perhaps alone it wouldn't work quite so well as an example, but it slots in readily with the other signs we have of the same: Sam's not even wanting to say goodbye to his lover in 4x14, Sam having no sympathy for the incest babies in 4x11, Sam being willing to sacrifice humans to feed from in the later episodes, Sam thinking that the normal rules don't apply to him, and so on

Re: 1/2

[impulsiveanswer]

To me it was more distaste - it was a job he didn't want to be doing, but distaste for being in an unfortunate position is different than outright regretting it. I see a huge measure of apathy in regards to humanity in Sam's actions there. Perhaps alone it wouldn't work quite so well as an example, but it slots in readily with the other signs we have of the same: Sam's not even wanting to say goodbye to his lover in 4x14, Sam having no sympathy for the incest babies in 4x11, Sam being willing to sacrifice humans to feed from in the later episodes, Sam thinking that the normal rules don't apply to him, and so on.I don't see apathy and distaste so much as resignation and a choice of detachment. By the time we got to 4.14 and 4.15, Sam was eyeballs deep in the demon-blood-drinking and at this point he believed (as he said in 4.22) that he wasn't going to survive the endgame but the sacrifice of his life/soul was necessary to stop Lilith. In his point of view things had to be done and he had to do them, even if he didn't like it. The

Re: 1/2

[ginzai]

I don't see apathy and distaste so much as resignation and a choice of detachment.

My personal take on Sam is that he's made up of countless layers, the majority of which he wasn't even aware of by the end of the season and all of which goes back to his theme of lying to himself. He acted the part of a martyr in 4x22, but I believe that was merely the top-most of these layers - and the most false of them. Under that is the superiority and aggression, both of which went deep, and under those was a sheer layer of pure rage. All of which worked to disguise what was at his true core, those emotions that he didn't even allow himself to feel because they simply hurt too much: guilt and self-loathing and pain and horror and shock, and yes also a suicidal drive

[blahbaby]

I never realized I was a Sam fan until this season, I still don't know if I'm a Sam specifically, or if this season just left me leaning more toward Sam because of how it ended. I still have mixed feelings, but I think there was a lack of good writing for Sam's storyline this season, the fact that you have to go back and re-watch and look for clues or people writing fic, trying to suss out how Sam possibly got to that place or how he felt, just feels like fanwank. Sort of liked the show failed at making this clear. Keeping it a mystery would have worked great if let's say S4 had started with Lucifer rising, and then y'know it went back to see who was responsible then it was an awesome twist. Cause Sam was such a mystery, you wouldn't have seen it coming. With good writing, you shouldn't have to go back and view again to see how everything fits, everything should just suddenly make awesome sense at the end. The only hints given this season was Dean thought it was wrong. Now if that's how we're supposed to take things as viewers, that

[ginzai]

I am the LAST PERSON ON THE PLANET to talk about TL;DR. XD

[blahbaby]

When I think about it, I think Sam's story wasn't told. Sam sort of comes across as a plot device this season. We don't get his motivations and we don't really get his story, but his actions or kind of what drives the plot forward this season, because you have the angels, who start Dean on the path telling Dean that he has to stop Sam, and then they have Ruby like you said, smirking towards the end, and we get none of the middle. I know you say there's a reflection of Sam's story of the MotW of the week, and possibly that's true, but even then I am not sure that comes across in all of the MotW, just the eps where Sam had a little more to do. IMO it doesn't matter if Sam's story is partially reflected in the MotW because aside from Metamorphasis which sticks out to me, we get none of Sam's story. No MotW even comes close to the scenario of what Sam actually went through while Dean was dead. They waited like more than a quarter episodes in before they even touched on Sam's feelings and showed what happen, and even then there was only

[ginzai]

I think I can appreciate the way Sam's story was told easier because I'm not a Sam!girl, so it's not as frustrating to me for it to be partially cloaked and hidden away. The way they told Dean's story in turn was somewhat frustrating for me because it left him just as objectified as Sam was in a lot of ways (the dropping of the PTSD, that he "got over" Hell thanks to Zachariah's speech, et cetera).

I think part of the issue with Sam's story is that they really couldn't tell it straight out. Others before me have noted that had they done so, Sam either would have come across as a dupe and a chump or as having gone dark side already, neither of which is quite true. If Sam were the only main character or if the apocalypse storyline had been brought up earlier, they probably could have told Sam's story from a different perspective, one that would have offered more insight to his character. As is though, they were pretty limited in terms of how much time could be devoted to Sam and his struggle. Overall, I think they achieved a

[muffaletta]

First of all, let's get the important stuff out of the way: you've decided to write that sequel to "Wisdom?" AWESOME! *twirls you

[ginzai]

*g* I'll be writing the sequel if my muse will get back in gear.

Oh, Sammy was a bad, bad boy, wasn't he? It'll take a while before I'm comfortable with the Winchester dynamic again.

I think you've really hit the nail on the head when it comes to effort put into Sam and Dean's respective emotional arcs this season. In retrospect, it very much seems to me that the majority of effort was in Sam's part, no matter how loud the complaints were when the season was actually airing. With Dean, it was far more blatant - almost overly so, to the point where his tears inspired more snickering or groans than sympathy from the generic fan. Which you know I've got my own issues with there; 40 freaking years in Hell, dude. If you want to cry after 40 freaking years in Hell, I'm pretty sure you've earned the right!

And yeah, I am disappointed with the handwave response to Dean's PTSD and various issues. I don't like that TPTB did everything possible to crush him this season, including attacking all of his emotional trigger points, and