I'm really glad I read this. I agree with most of it. Actually, I really just found it interesting to read and understand more deeply where you're coming from because you and I are such different people. :)
I'll admit, I want to argue with the idea that fandom isn't a community - because I think you're defining it to mean that saying it's a community means that there has to be a set of rules everyone follows, or that people are obligated to be a certain way.
I looked up the word community - and most of the definitions apply to fandom activity, imo. It just means we're a group with a unified interest. That's it.
Call it source material if you want, but everything written in the world is created by people - whether it's fanfic or something else. The fact that you even heard about Reborn and Bleach is due to other people that you met through your participation in your writing, meta-ing, LJing or whatever else. It doesn't mean you have to be best friends for life, it just means you had a person-to-person interaction because of shared interests
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I don't speak for F, but often in these discussions, the word community is used to mean a group of friends with a set of common rules. Obviously we aren't that. I'm not even going to deal with different fandoms, but even within the Harry Potter fandom, different corners of fandom have different rules.
If you use the word to mean a group of people with the same interest, then I agree with you. Unfortunately, not many use it like this.
Well... hmm. I don't define community that way, though I do think it's nice to have a general responsibility for the people around - that you don't go out of your way to piss them off, things like that. But some people build up an entire community just off of that, so... I have no idea what I'm trying to say here.
Basically, I think community and What You Should Do are two different things. I also admit that I'm a bit attached to the idea of community as something positive - sharing appreciation for something together - which is why I react to discussions like this in disagreement.
I agree that you don't have to piss people off, on the other hand, I'm not sure you have a responsibility either. You have duties, like the duty to follow comms rules or fest rules, but aside from that, I don't think you owe anyone anything. Now that's not to mean that you can't be courteous or friendly. I make sure to answer all my emails, give feedback, etc., but that's my choice. I don't think anyone has to. On the other hand, if you aren't courteous or friendly, then you don't get to bitch that people don't like you. In the end, I'm all for people deciding what their personal fandom experience should be.
I am often cynical and cold; I am impatient with others; it's hard for me to be kind; due to PTSD, I have a limited emotional range -- not quite that of a teaspoon, but close -- sometimes the only way I'm able to safely experience emotions unrelated to grief is by writing and reading about fictional people having them. I don't play well with most others, and there is a wide variety of behaviours that piss me off and make me snarl... which I rarely hesitate to do -- better out than in is my philosophy when it comes to rage. By "normal" societal standards, I'm really quite ugly on the inside, and I've made my peace with that ...
In short, I'm not a nice person, and my predominant culture's ideas of what defines a nice person make me gag more often than not, so I don't even want to be a nice person in the first place.I wonder how much this is a 'society thing', though. You know me, much like you I have no tolerance for stupidity and a great deal of behavior that goes around. In fact, I don't think you have to be nice at all.
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Yeah, I totally hear you on the North American standard of "nice" being predominant, and I really dislike it too, but it's also true that fandom is dominated by North Americans, so it's yet another question of majority values. It's like that time people were all up in arms about an interview given by some SUP bigwig during some LJ brouhaha or another; I remember I read the original Russian and went "uh, that wasn't really all that offensive/inflammatory" but I have a point of cultural reference whereas many other members of fandom didn't -- and many of them didn't want to acknowledge that their cultural perspective isn't correct just because it's predominant
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I remember that wank, and your translation at the type. I have to say that sometimes people are just too darn sensitive for the type of person that I am, and yes, I know that it's a me thing.
See, Italians didn't even bother with the kindness part. We have sayings like 'trusting is good, not trusting is even better', and of course, it's not an accident that Machiavelli was Italian. The end justifies the means is one of the most important lessons taught to kids in my country. Of course, everything is nicely wrapped in diplomatic words. So yes, I know how to go along with the niceness, but that doesn't mean I want to.
Pretty off-topic, really, but that's so much like the Argentinean mindset! Not accidentally, obviously, I have been living in Spain for seven years now and I never stop being surprised at how genuinely trusting and nice people are! I have never been a social climber or someone who takes advantadge in my own context but here it would be so easy because nobody except companies and such seems to consider the possibility.
Could you maybe tell me 'trusting is good, not trusting is even better' in the original? :)
I agree with most of it, except But I digress. I've told you why I feel it's my responsibility if my actions cause real pain, inadvertently or not. But that only applies to me; it doesn't extend to anyone else in fandom. If someone is admittedly callous, a confirmed cynic, or misanthrope who doesn't care to adopt another worldview, then yeah, like it or not, it's not their responsibility to own up to the pain they cause, because they don't actually owe it to anyone to care. because I think people ought to be good and responsible for their actions, and no one should cause pain to others, in fandom or outside it...
See, the older I get, the more I think that there is no such thing as a good person or a bad person. For example, if someone causes pain to another person who's by some definition "bad", and if they cause that pain as a result of that other person's "badness", doesn't that make them a bad person? Or does it make them a purveyor of justice? If a "bad" person is ostracised or belittled for their perceived "badness", aren't her attackers just as bad, by their own definition?
Maybe that's my word choice here - I do believe there are very few good people, and very few bad people, and most of us are just people - but what I meant here, when I said "people should be good" was "people's actions should be good", and of course that's sometimes difficult to establish - the boundaries can be fluid - but at least attempting to refrain from causing pain to people - and very much owning up to it when one does - are part of it ;)
It's not that I never cause pain, but I'd like to believe it that when I discover I did, I (usually) regret it.
Of course, sometimes I don't, but I don't consider that a virtue...
(I'm feeling bitter and want to cause very literal pain to the ticket controller who gave me a fine today for a mistake I made checking my ticket :((( I wasn't even trying to cheat the stupid tram, I had just fallen down and I had an aching, bleeding knee and was too distraught to notice I was checking the same ticket twice on two sides and not a second one :/)
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I looked up the word community - and most of the definitions apply to fandom activity, imo. It just means we're a group with a unified interest. That's it.
Call it source material if you want, but everything written in the world is created by people - whether it's fanfic or something else. The fact that you even heard about Reborn and Bleach is due to other people that you met through your participation in your writing, meta-ing, LJing or whatever else. It doesn't mean you have to be best friends for life, it just means you had a person-to-person interaction because of shared interests ( ... )
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If you use the word to mean a group of people with the same interest, then I agree with you. Unfortunately, not many use it like this.
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Basically, I think community and What You Should Do are two different things. I also admit that I'm a bit attached to the idea of community as something positive - sharing appreciation for something together - which is why I react to discussions like this in disagreement.
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i'm just having this 'oh wow i never thought i'd see a kpop icon here of all places 8O!'
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In short, I'm not a nice person, and my predominant culture's ideas of what defines a nice person make me gag more often than not, so I don't even want to be a nice person in the first place.I wonder how much this is a 'society thing', though. You know me, much like you I have no tolerance for stupidity and a great deal of behavior that goes around. In fact, I don't think you have to be nice at all. ( ... )
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See, Italians didn't even bother with the kindness part. We have sayings like 'trusting is good, not trusting is even better', and of course, it's not an accident that Machiavelli was Italian. The end justifies the means is one of the most important lessons taught to kids in my country. Of course, everything is nicely wrapped in diplomatic words. So yes, I know how to go along with the niceness, but that doesn't mean I want to.
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Could you maybe tell me 'trusting is good, not trusting is even better' in the original? :)
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I think I might be a dreamer ;D
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I think I might be a cynic. >.>
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It's not that I never cause pain, but I'd like to believe it that when I discover I did, I (usually) regret it.
Of course, sometimes I don't, but I don't consider that a virtue...
(I'm feeling bitter and want to cause very literal pain to the ticket controller who gave me a fine today for a mistake I made checking my ticket :((( I wasn't even trying to cheat the stupid tram, I had just fallen down and I had an aching, bleeding knee and was too distraught to notice I was checking the same ticket twice on two sides and not a second one :/)
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