the morality of fat

[atwistedstring]

I'm finding myself to be very inarticulate today, so I'm hoping that this really small and inadequate post will start a better discussion. I feel like I really need to say this:

I don't actually have to be healthy.

I'm sure a fair number of the members of fatshionista would agree that fat stigma is bad. I hope that most of us would, anyway. I bet an equally

Comments

[onceupon]

In general, sure, but in a community where we are talking about the issues associated with being fat? It's bound to come up and taking a stance on it is an important thing, I think. If this were solely a fashion community, I think being concerned with our own business would be an adequate response but in this context it affects the atmosphere of the whole community.

[onceupon]

I'm not disagreeing with your stance at all - because it IS a matter of personal choices. But the problem is that, in a community of this nature, it's a topic some people want to discuss. It's come up in comments to a couple of recent entries, particularly the Queen Latifah, Jenny Craig stuff, where some people have felt the need to push health as a be all, end all for evey person. I'm reading this as a response to that sort of thing - it's a specific context, instead of just a general statement.

So, having a specific stance on it, as laid out in the community info for example, means we can limit or, if necessary, shut down comments that conflate health with morality and weight loss with health.

If everyone took your view of it, we wouldn't need a stance on it. *grin*

[pooklaroux]

okay, just a short reply to this. Years ago I had a thin, healthy-seeming friend, who was very active, tanned, vegetarian, who rode endurance and hiked, and refinished old houses for fun. Anyone would have said he seemed healthy, he "looked" healthy. Then one day he woke up with a cough. It got worse, so after three weeks, he went to the doc. Lung cancer. Six months later he was dead. You really can't tell to look at someone how healthy or not healthy they really are. I'd rather be a healthy fat woman than a dead skinny one. Much more fun to pick out flattering clothes for work than to pick out clothes to look good in my casket. Let's get on with the fatshionista! Gimme some OOTD's!

[atwistedstring]

Anyone would have said he seemed healthy, he "looked" healthy. Then one day he woke up with a cough. It got worse, so after three weeks, he went to the doc. Lung cancer. Six months later he was dead. You really can't tell to look at someone how healthy or not healthy they really are.

Again with me feeling inarticulate, so bear with me while I try to unpack this.

By all accounts, your friend was doing everything that the mainstream medical community advocates as "healthy" (except for the tanning thing). But ultimately, none of those things prevented his death from cancer. You used this as an example to illustrate that it's impossible to tell whether someone is healthy or unhealthy. I would use it as an example to illustrate that the idea of "health" is inherently flawed and arbitrary, and worth deconstructing.

And I'm super glad you like the fatshionable aims of this comm, but "Let's get on with the fatshionista!" seems a little dismissive. We're here to talk about the politics of fat too, not just fatshion.

[pooklaroux]

but "Let's get on with the fatshionista!" seems a little dismissive. I'm sorry if you found that to be dismissive. Talking about the death of my friend is a little heavy. I wanted to transition away from that. I totally support the aim of this post/thread as I understand it to be. My contribution is: you can't tell how healthy someone is by looking at them. Neither fat nor thin is inherently healthy or not healthy. I completely agree that it is a dangerous and slippery slope to equate health with moral virtue. And altho I personally support HAES, I don't think we should force people to do things for the sake of their "health" especially when that is such a subjective goal.

[atwistedstring]

My apologies for not being more sensitive. Thank you for clarifying.

[theoryofgravity]

This is really well stated, thanks for posting it.

Part of why I hate arguing the stupid health question in the first place is because it is so individual. If I eat a cheeseburger for lunch, it's nobody's damn business whether they think I ought to have it or not, or whether it's the first cheeseburger I've had in months, or whether I eat them every day morning noon and night. If I take the stairs instead of the elevator, it's nobody's damn business whether I'm doing it as part of a larger plan of weight loss, and so forth.

Having said that, requiring "good health" (whatever the fuck that means) as the only condition under which fatness is acceptable is super problematic. It just sets up the whole guilt scenario I remember so well from my compulsive-dieting years: I'm a "good" fatass if I'm healthy, I'm a "bad" fatass if I skip the gym today.

I personally despise talking about the health question. I'm glad you brought it up, though.

[atwistedstring]

I don't especially like talking about it either, to be honest, because I actually find it a really confusing thing to wrap my head around (since it really isn't ever cut and dry, and is so tied up in aesthetics). Thanks for letting me post it. :)

[atwistedstring]

In the US we've replaced "moral" with "healthy."

Exactly. There have been numerous articles to this effect; Peter Marsh gave a speech called In Praise of Bad Habits (Healthism and Liberty) which is an interesting read.

[sweetlittlemary]

That was fascinating! Thanks for sharing. Also, I've just repeated the phrase "risk homeostasis" aloud several times, and it continues to make me smile. Not sure why.

[little_ms_me]

thank you for saying this! it's interesting, because that's a term i've found myself using in regards to a past relationship i had, and i generally use it because i feel uncomfortable labeling the relationship as abusive (because i feel that it was kinda borderline - other people have survived much more extreme abuse - but at the same time, it's important to recognize emotional abuse as valid as well - though as someone who's seen themselves as a very strong feminist for their entire life, it's really hard to accept that i lived with abuse for that long - and there's guilt over labeling me ex as "abusive" - do you see why i'm uncomfy?!)so i guess in my attempt to not take away space from abuse survivors who i view as more "valid" than me, i've picked up the term "unhealthy". though at the same time, the relationship really WAS unhealthy for me - i'm convinced that the stress of being in that relationship for two years made my chronic illness a million times worse

[onceupon]

But that isn't something that people are universally concerned with - I mean, it's fantastic that one of your goals is to treat your body "right" (which can mean any number of things depending on the individual), but not everyone is going to share that goal and that shouldn't mean a person is any more deserving of fat hate or shame than you, you know?

[astragali]

That's great--for *you*. For other people, though, they don't want their value as human beings to be dependent on their health.

[cjtremlett]

That's the nail on the head. The key point. The statement it all boils down to (at least in my interpretation).

My value as a human being should not depend on -any- physical characteristic. My height, my skin color, my hair color, my weight, what foods I eat, when I eat them, the amount of exercise I get, etc. etc.