[meta]: the nice guy phenomenon, and why it is a problem

[epistolic]

It's probably a bit strange for me to be posting this after not posting anything outside of fandom things for the past... year or so, but this is something that has been weighing on my mind a lot recently; so, here we go.

A couple of days ago, I became aware of The Nice Guy, a website which was set up by (presumably) a self-ordained Nice Guy. In

Comments

[zeffy_amethyst]

That's the Nice Guy Dogma in a nutshell. Girls are a prize in the RPG of life, to be collected and treasured but never really appreciated beyond that.

I'm sorry to hear your boyfriend's behaving like that :/ Hope you're doing okay.

[epistolic]

Exactly! We exist to make them feel good about themselves; we exist as a supporting act, and whenever we make the effort to say no, we want to be a main player too, we want to have our own storyline they get upset. :(

I'm doing okay - I think I made my point to him as to why I was upset with him, and while I still don't think he quite understands (he keeps making excuses like "but I'm a boy! Boys like sex!" and "not all people are perfect. Everyone makes mistakes") I think it's a step in the right direction. I'm certainly not going to just sit down and shut up and put up with it. :D

[zeffy_amethyst]

Yep! Screw being the sidekick, you're the main character of your own story dammit.

*crosses my fingers for you* Hope he gets the message.

In more cheerful news, what rotation are you on now?

[epistolic]

Thanks darling ♥

I'm on Medicine at the moment! Exam on Friday, eek. I'm busily cramming all my book knowledge and hoping they don't give me scleroderma or SLE or something for my long, that will make me cry. Where were you for your Med rotation, if I might ask? :D

[alwaysenduphere]

OH MY GOD I'M DATING A NICE GUY.

i've never really noticed /o\ and like, he's not THAT ENTITLED but the "Why aren't you flattered I find you sexually desirable?" and the fact that he doesn't understand that i don't want to have sex EVERY TIME I SEE HIM . Which granted, he doesn't push too hard on but it's always clear it's A THING HE WANTS. ugh. I didn't know this was a website that existed but now I am just ANGRY because one dude on the internet saying its ok and other dudes SEEING that pat on the back just encourages what is clearly A PROBLEM.

[epistolic]

I think it's probably not a unique sort of thing. We girls are conditioned at a very young age to modify ourselves - our appearance, our conduct - on what men find attractive. All those magazines that say things like "This Is What Your Man Likes You Wearing" etc. just reinforce the idea that our bodies don't belong to ourselves. If we aren't sexually desirable, we aren't a real woman, or we aren't worth as much as someone who is. And therefore boys think it is the ultimate compliment to catcall at a girl, or to tell her that he wants to fuck her.

WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY JUST WRONG.

Yeah I am seriously struggling with the "sex every time we meet" thing. And also sometimes he ignores my explicit refusal of consent; like I push him away, and he thinks I'm just playing hard to get, and keeps going. It's definitely something that's reinforced by the media, and by these websites (like you said). And yeah, it makes me furious too.

[geckoholic]

This, to a T. See, I've had three relationships so far, and never really encountered that problem. It's not until I got back into the dating thing after my last relationship, which lasted almost a decade, ended, and I'm ~stunned by how some guys seem to think. The outlook that finding someone attractive and telling them so should somehow gain them points towards getting laid is just... BZUH?! The guy I'm currently sort of dating -- or have been, I'm in the process of breaking it up, idek -- is one of those self-proclaimed nice guys. He claims he's such a good guy -- and then reacts like every other asshole out there, it's just that he doesn't see it at all and goes all ??? when I'm not happy with his bullcrap. And it's not even about wanting sex -- I'm pretty, errr... Say, I've probably got a guys's libido in that regard, lol, but that he also thinks he's somehow owed we do it the way HE wants because he's being so nice (which he's really not) and deserves to be serviced? IDEK

[epistolic]

See that's just the thing! I think the problem is that these guys seem to think that we are the same as a car, or an expensive holiday: if you fork out the money, there isn't any reason why you shouldn't get your car or your holiday. But that doesn't apply to women. To be honest I think if a guy thinks he's a nice guy, then either he is, or he's the complete opposite and just tragically unaware

[geckoholic]

Yeah, that's probably comparable, indeed. They just somehow lost the knowledge that they're dealing with ANOTHER HUMAN BEING along the way, and ugh. That's a lot of things, but nice? Nope. Way off. And it is indeed astounding, just how good they are at ignoring the fact to shape the world so it fits them best, women included. Ugh.

[epistolic]

Yeah, it's sad and frustrating. It all just screams "I can't deal with rejection like a mature adult" to me.

[epistolic]

See the reason why I felt the need to post this is because my first relationship, back when I was in high school, was all wrong. I was very young and had been a high achiever all my life, so I felt like I had to bend over backwards no matter what to please those around me; to the point where I let my then-boy do things to me that I really really hadn't wanted him to do. This time around though I've learned from my mistakes! And I hope other girls will realise that nobody has the right to make you do something YOU don't want to do.

I've noticed that, too - these boys always seem to have a very fragile sense of self, and expect us to do anything to help them feel better. Even if that means damaging our sense of self to do it: that's what they expect. And then when those expectations aren't met, when they realise that no, the world is not just about them, they react with bitterness and indignation, as if we have personally insulted them. It all comes back to the age-old mantra: you girls exist just to pleasure/service me, I am the man,

[incandescent]

I agree. Although I do think that sometimes what these Nice Guys want isn't mainly sex, but also a demonstration of love. They want a woman (or guy, I'm sure this happens in all kinds of relationships), to show that their "niceness" is appreciate and reciprocate - either with a similar devotion to the Nice Guy, or with a kind of caring that borders on motherly. In the former, the Nice Guys wants a woman to be subservient, and just isn't asking for that outright, and in the latter, he wants someone like his mother to be responsible for him in return for devotion. Not a winning scenario, I don't think .

[epistolic]

Yes, true! But in any of those situations it's always them being the centre of the world, and us girls orbiting around them. It's so unbalanced, and I guess that's just the way that society has taught us to be - the men do things, the women look pretty and take care of/worship their men... :(

[incandescent]

So true. And the sad thing is, many women want to take up that role. It makes them happy. Which I don't blame them for... I suppose you just have to go with whatever makes you happy.

How are you doing?

[epistolic]

Yes! I think a lot of the time women take it up because they feel like they're fulfilling the role they're meant to be filling, kind-of like "finding their place in the world". Which is a sentiment that isn't problematic, but the role in itself, is problematic.

I'm doing alright! I'm terribly sorry, I haven't had a chance to look through your fics just yet. I have an Honours presentation due on Wednesday so I'm trying to sort that out first /o\