No during-episode commentary tonight 'cause I'm trying to teach myself to spin using the long draw. (I'm very much a short draw spinner). But ( observations )
The S2 ep with Ava is AHBL1, since the other ep with Ava is Hunted and Sam didn't die there. And rewatch the S5 premiere--Sam dies thirty seconds after Zachariah confiscates his lungs, and thirty seconds later he's better. So four.
Dean isn't the important one, Dean isn't the one Anna needs to have die. Sam is. Which invites the question of why Anna didn't just break John's or Mary's neck and have done.
Actually, I did mean "Hunted" because while Sam doesn't technically die, he dies in Ava's vision. And yeah I recalled, "Sympathy for the Devil," but couldn't recall if he was dead dead or not. But mainly it was a rhetorical question...
And you're right about Dean not being the one who needs to die in order to not become Lucifer's vessel, but frankly I stopping the apocalypse from starting would be easier if you (meaning Anna) just wiped out the entire Winchester line, Dean included. I'm not saying that Dean would have been in Hell to start said apocalypse if his life didn't include Sam, but given Anna's precarious situation, and the difficulty of time travel, etc., I'd want to be sure neither was born, were I in Anna's angelic shoes.
Well, killing Mary while the pregnancy wasn't even showing would certainly have done that--what's the point before which fetuses simply don't survive? Twenty-two weeks? Twentysomething weeks, anyway, which is five months at least, and since she wasn't even showing she can't have been more than three months along and that's pushing it considerably.
Yes, obviously. My only point is that it seems like poor planning in case something went wrong. (Which, of course, it did, but I was thinking something less permanent than being gruesomely killed by Michael.) Time travel, as we learned from season 4 and again tonight, isn't particularly easy, and while wrapping it up in the 42 minutes of an episode is a guarantee, I just think that Anna couldn't have been certain she'd succeed.
Also, it's a really minor point, and I wasn't making any big deal about it-- it was just what popped into my mind while watching the episode, upon hearing it was 1978.
>>I'm not sure why this episode is choosing to hammer home the density angle, since Show has done that before, many times<<
because that's what spn does. if it wasn't beating a plot point into the ground, it would be a different show.
i may or may not have groaned "oh please, don't pull that shit" at the bloodline revelation, but it fits the brother-vs-brother, son-vs-dad, biblical-family theme so well i'm not surprised they threw it in there.
dean's all about the free will. :D but he has to believe he has some kind of control over his own life. especially now.
i actually liked this one - i wasn't expecting to, but i did. dean telling mary "in four years you're going to die", and then her telling him and sam that she can't leave john because she's already pregnant, that was nicely played. i sniffled.
because that's what spn does. if it wasn't beating a plot point into the ground, it would be a different show. ::snicker:: Fair point, fair point. Oh Show, how I love you, despite your (many) faults.
dean's all about the free will. :D but he has to believe he has some kind of control over his own life. especially now. I just hope he's *right*, despite how often Show has said he's not (from "Mystery Spot" in season 3, allllll the way through season 4, and now all of season 5.) *I* have to believe in free will (in real life, too, but that's irrelevant to this conversation) or Show is pointless. Who cares about characters who are always going to be pushed into the same ending (even if the ending is interesting)? But that could just be me.
Until God him/herself says that Density is the rule, I will insist on believing in Free Will for Show.
I liked the episode, too. I'm not saying it'll be one of my top 5 faves, but I enjoyed it, and enjoyed what it did for the characters and the plot.
i'm personally a big believer in free will too. and i think that's where the show will ultimately fall, partly because i'm starting to wonder if they're pounding the destiny stuff so hard because they want it to be a big gotcha moment when the boys break free of it in the end, and manage to save the world without having to do what the angels tell them to do. (and because a fated ending is boring.) but i also think that might be giving the ptb too much credit. i expect both the pre-ordained, angels-say-it-so-it-must-be-so ending and the free will ending about equally, to be honest.
also, and only kind of related, i found another cm/spn crossover actor! david tom, who was curtis the abductee (who slow danced under a disco ball) in tall tales, and also georgie, one of the victims' kids, in damaged.
Anna's choice of 1978, however, is curring it rather close, given Dean was born in December '78.
*cough*January1979actually*cough*
I got the impression she went back to after Dean was conceived to kill John before he could sire Sam but to still ensure that Dean would be born. She didn't really target Mary at all and all along she said that they had to kill Sam, not both of them.
It's got to be weird talking to someone who claims to be your son (who you haven't had yet.) It's got to be twice as weird to know you're pregnant with that same son.
And weird also to be talking to your mom when you know that she's pregnant with you!
Agreed about Anna's death! D:
Um. Anna just killed Sam... How many times has Sam died on this show? At least "All Hell Breaks Loose" part 1, "Wishful Thinking" and, um, that episode in season 2 with Ava.Sam's only been officially confirmed as dead once. We don't know that he died in Wishful Thinking (people survive getting struck by lightning and did anyone else who died in that ep get brought back?) and
( ... )
Heh, oops, my bad. I knew it was right around then, though, 'cause I knew that Dean and I are the same-ish age, and I was born late '79. I don't know where I got December '78, but I was close
( ... )
You know, I agree. I hadn't thought about his reaction in 5.04 in those terms. (I haven't had a chance to rewatch any of season 5, partly though being less obsessive than I was last season, and partly because I'm in a particularly stressful part of earning my degree.) But yeah, you're completely right-- he wasn't just upset that Sam had said yes, that Sam had given in and therefore completed the process of the apocalypse, but that Sam was dead.
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Dean isn't the important one, Dean isn't the one Anna needs to have die. Sam is. Which invites the question of why Anna didn't just break John's or Mary's neck and have done.
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And you're right about Dean not being the one who needs to die in order to not become Lucifer's vessel, but frankly I stopping the apocalypse from starting would be easier if you (meaning Anna) just wiped out the entire Winchester line, Dean included. I'm not saying that Dean would have been in Hell to start said apocalypse if his life didn't include Sam, but given Anna's precarious situation, and the difficulty of time travel, etc., I'd want to be sure neither was born, were I in Anna's angelic shoes.
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Also, it's a really minor point, and I wasn't making any big deal about it-- it was just what popped into my mind while watching the episode, upon hearing it was 1978.
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because that's what spn does. if it wasn't beating a plot point into the ground, it would be a different show.
i may or may not have groaned "oh please, don't pull that shit" at the bloodline revelation, but it fits the brother-vs-brother, son-vs-dad, biblical-family theme so well i'm not surprised they threw it in there.
dean's all about the free will. :D but he has to believe he has some kind of control over his own life. especially now.
i actually liked this one - i wasn't expecting to, but i did. dean telling mary "in four years you're going to die", and then her telling him and sam that she can't leave john because she's already pregnant, that was nicely played. i sniffled.
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::snicker:: Fair point, fair point. Oh Show, how I love you, despite your (many) faults.
dean's all about the free will. :D but he has to believe he has some kind of control over his own life. especially now.
I just hope he's *right*, despite how often Show has said he's not (from "Mystery Spot" in season 3, allllll the way through season 4, and now all of season 5.) *I* have to believe in free will (in real life, too, but that's irrelevant to this conversation) or Show is pointless. Who cares about characters who are always going to be pushed into the same ending (even if the ending is interesting)? But that could just be me.
Until God him/herself says that Density is the rule, I will insist on believing in Free Will for Show.
I liked the episode, too. I'm not saying it'll be one of my top 5 faves, but I enjoyed it, and enjoyed what it did for the characters and the plot.
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also, and only kind of related, i found another cm/spn crossover actor! david tom, who was curtis the abductee (who slow danced under a disco ball) in tall tales, and also georgie, one of the victims' kids, in damaged.
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*cough*January1979actually*cough*
I got the impression she went back to after Dean was conceived to kill John before he could sire Sam but to still ensure that Dean would be born. She didn't really target Mary at all and all along she said that they had to kill Sam, not both of them.
It's got to be weird talking to someone who claims to be your son (who you haven't had yet.) It's got to be twice as weird to know you're pregnant with that same son.
And weird also to be talking to your mom when you know that she's pregnant with you!
Agreed about Anna's death! D:
Um. Anna just killed Sam... How many times has Sam died on this show? At least "All Hell Breaks Loose" part 1, "Wishful Thinking" and, um, that episode in season 2 with Ava.Sam's only been officially confirmed as dead once. We don't know that he died in Wishful Thinking (people survive getting struck by lightning and did anyone else who died in that ep get brought back?) and ( ... )
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Yup. Okay, you've convinced me! :D
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