Dumble’s (Mis) Conceptions about Godric’s Hollow: James’s and Lily’s Roles

[terri_testing]

To figure out what Albus believed saved Harry from Tom that night, we have to look closely at his actions. (Including his speech acts, while making sure not to assume he’s invariably speaking truthfully.)

So, what acts can we judge Twinkles on?

Comments

[librasmile]

Fascinating, absolutely fascinating and absorbing. Quite thought-provoking too. Although I despise James, it's satisfying to see a viewpoint that gives his death not only some meaning but also some calculation - because otherwise he just seems spectacularly arrogant and stupid

[librasmile]

Part 2

[600ants]

What puzzles me is why bother to look for reasons and causes, if you know that ultimately everything boils down to powers that be feeling like it (or not). However I agree that, though utter bollocks otherwise (always imo), this theory works wonderfully for the HP universe. I noticed some time ago (around the time I stopped trying to make any sense of this great pile of rubbish) that there really is no cause and consequence in Harry Potter, but only "JKR said so". Because she felt like it. Or not.(Actually, you two might make brilliant pen palls - apparently she also believes that striving for *anything* is evil incarnate. Luckily since we weren't smitten down for cheating death with seat belts and chinin yet, if there is a god, it seems to think otherwise. (I wonder why an omnipotent being that has always been would be shit scared of us humankind pushing it off its throne...))

It *is* on-topic! Just on a more cosmic level.

[oryx_leucoryx]

You do realize the Potterverse is a fantasy universe and it's rules are different than those of the one we live in (whatever you may believe about the latter)? We don't know if there is/are any god(s) operating in the Potterverse. We don't know how close Potterverse magic is to a force of nature vs the actions of a sentient superbeing. The normal spells look like the former, but prophecy, wandlore and the actions of some magical objects look more like the latter. But from the existence of Felix Felicis potion we know that in the Potterverse luck is an actual force of nature that can be manipulated directly (in contrast with our universe, where 'luck' is what we call 'things happening in our favor for no discernible reason'). And Harry constantly has more luck than is reasonable to expect. If he played dice, he'd always roll a six (as Vimes said of Carrot, and one reason Pratchett got bored with Carrot's character and pushed him to the sidelines). Of course the reason Harry is so lucky is because Rowling can't write a realistic plot.

[oryx_leucoryx]

The idea that Albus learned of the events at Godric's Hollow by Legilimensing Harry has been around fandom for a long while. It is plausible in that Albus may have had access to Harry during the 24 hours without Hagrid's knowledge (when Hagrid brings Harry to 4PD he speaks as if it is the first time Dumbles sees him - he reports of successfully removing Harry from the destroyed house, facts Albus should have known if he already saw Harry). But nowadays I am trying to work out what Dumbles might have learned assuming he spent the 24 hours investigating the ruin at Godric's Hollow. This should be in part 6 of my series. The reason I think Albus probably spent some time there (or at least had a thorough interview with members of the Ministry clean-up team that handled the place) is that if Albus knew that Tom left behind him an object that looked like a failed Horcrux his apparent conclusion that the Harrycrux was Tom's only Horcrux would make sense. And if he had personally investigated the place he might have noticed the distance

[annoni_no]

It always tickles me to see my ideas get picked up by others =^__^= The thought that Harry's (obscene) levels of luck come from a double sacrifice rather than a single, unprecedentedly potent one strikes me as much more reasonable.

This is a lovely summation of Dumbles' probable thought processes given the canon sources and the community's latest theories. Thank you for laying everything out so clearly.

I don't think (or at least, don't want to) that Albus' flash from 'gleam of triumph' to 'as old and weary as Harry had ever seen' was just the realization that his spell work had been upstaged. I'd hope it was also his epiphany that, whatever his conscious rationalizations, he'd been wrong. Not just ethically and morally, which he must have known on some level, but even on the basis of tactics he'd played the callous incompetent. That must have been a nasty shock. Certainly enough make him look worn and exhausted even in the face of what should be a joyous discovery. It's rather to his credit that he didn't break down then and

[oryx_leucoryx]

So, if Tom's use of Harry's blood ended up saving Harry in the forest because of his parents' sacrificial death then in an AU where Tom uses the blood of some other enemy, that person should have no special protection?

[oryx_leucoryx]

So I was thinking of other possible beneficiaries of parental sacrifice:

Tom Marvolo Riddle: His mother chose to bring him to term despite poor health and harsh living conditions. Tom should have received a single dose of parental-sacrifice-induced luck. I'm thinking this gift of luck expired when he went and killed his father. Do we see signs that Tom was luckier before his father's death compared to later?

Barty Crouch Jr: His mother shortened her life when she took his place in Azkaban. Maybe the gift of luck was smaller because she was already dying. But Elkins has a posting where she shows that Barty was beginning to slip after killing his father. maybe his success at being fake!Moody without getting caught is in part due to his mother's sacrifice?

Is Neville lucky? What about Luna?

Did Ariana sacrifice herself for her brothers? Did they become lucky after her death?

[oryx_leucoryx]

Regarding Tom, his mother's dying wish was that he inherit his father's looks. Her wish was granted, but later he lost his handsome looks as he got more involved in the Dark Arts. I'd say Merope's sacrifice caused her wish to be granted. Tom's patricide was the beginning of the wish's undoing.

Mrs Crouch died to save her son from dementors. It worked, which is why he was neither found by the Minstry for years on end, wasn't caught at the QWC, nor caught in his impersonation of Moody for a long time. Then he killed his father, thus negating the protection. He started slipping with the timing of his Polyjuice, and eventually got caught and soul-sucked.

I have no idea about the other examples.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Hmm. If Ariana sacrificed herself to save her brothers from Gellert maybe that explains the ease with which Albus defeated him.

[sunnyskywalker]

Way late, but:

Tom killed his father and grandparents in the summer after his 5th year, right? We know that before that, he'd been able to run a reign of terror undetected (and be beloved by most teachers to boot), and to find the Chamber of Secrets and control the basilisk within.

Afterward, he never found a way to open the Chamber again, managed to get a bit of information about Horcruxes from Slughorn but at the cost of making Slughorn just a little suspicious, and otherwise continued to be outwardly a model Hogwarts student while slowly building his power base. He then worked in a shop for... several years, was it? before getting ahold of two relics he'd really been wanting