Dumble’s (Mis) Conceptions about Godric’s Hollow: James’s and Lily’s Roles

Dec 20, 2012 09:31

To figure out what Albus believed saved Harry from Tom that night, we have to look closely at his actions. (Including his speech acts, while making sure not to assume he’s invariably speaking truthfully.)

So, what acts can we judge Twinkles on?

First )

author: terri_testing, sacrifice, luck, magical theory, meta, james potter, albus dumbledore, lily

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librasmile December 21 2012, 06:56:47 UTC
Fascinating, absolutely fascinating and absorbing. Quite thought-provoking too. Although I despise James, it's satisfying to see a viewpoint that gives his death not only some meaning but also some calculation - because otherwise he just seems spectacularly arrogant and stupid.

Per swythyv's writings, I see a whole other conflict going on under here and if your view of James' death is plausible then it would seem as if the Potters, as opposed to my previous theories, actually understood that and played the game accordingly rather than just stand as Dumbles' pawns. Quite clever =^)

On the other hand, I keep to my theory that horcruxes are never created simply by murder. Murder is commonplace and hence could hardly be part of the darkest art of horcrux creation. I still think that horcruxes are in fact created by RITUAL MURDER, i.e. intentional human sacrifice and also that they probably call up some infernal being or power through that sacrifice in order to make the horcrux itself. And that IS something that someone would NEVER want to say EVER for fear of calling that thing up inadvertantly. Hence you can't find books on it ( well not since Dumbles removed them all as well he should, albeit Hermione found one ). So I'm guessing that in some way Voldie set up the ritual, started it and it went wrong.

With regard to human sacrifice, sigh, forgive me for jumping on my western Christian theological stance here. From that point of view human sacrifice is ALWAYS murder, whether it is voluntary or coerced so it can't really be good in most circumstances, not in ritual circumstances anyway. However, to give one's life to protect another from danger IS a kind of human sacrifice that is moral ( again from my point of view; different religions will of course see this differently ). But I still can't see it conferring luck. I just don't believe in that level of luck. This might by my North Philly roots showing but I just find it hard to believe there's that much luck in the world. I'd rather believe that, again, there is a bigger, deeper game being played of which we see only the surface. And that surface looks confusing and contradictory at times because we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg; all the connecting points or terrain are submerged. In my little theory, there are unseen powers acting of which VOLDIE and DUMBLES are the pawns and there are MUCH bigger stakes being fought for.
( To be continued )

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librasmile December 21 2012, 06:57:10 UTC
Part 2

WHY is Voldie so afraid of death? Why does he fight it so much? I can't give a simple logistical answer but I can give a cosmic one. Wizards are akin to the angels who rebelled and fell because they dared to challenge God. How could they not be? Ordinary humankind is always prey to arrogance, always trying to push God off His throne. So how much worse must wizards, who have what can appear to be godlike powers, be? So if they fall prey to arrogance how far and deep does it go? Do they cheat death, the one great leveller of all humankind? To me Voldie Wars I and II are the cosmic trial to teach WIZARDS once and for all that they are merely human, no greater no lesser, and that are equally subject to the divine authority. They cannot escape no matter what they do. Voldie runs around frantically trying to avoid death. Dumbles thinks he's so clever in embracing death. Neither one has a clue really, or rather a lick of the necessary humility to truly embrace the lesson in death - which is that we are all subject to God ( or whoever you choose as your divine power or if you choose no power see it as we are all mortal, all runs down to entropy ). This cannot be avoided, mastered, or controlled. And yet neither Dumbles nor Voldie can stop trying. They're too arrogant.

Another reason I think this is that silly children's story Rowling tossed into DH. Why bother talking about death and the need to welcome it like an old friend otherwise? Voldie ran from death or fought it. ( Elder wand and invisibility cloak ). Dumbles manipulated it ( Resurrection stone ). Harry DID welcome it and overcame it. Not through any particular virtue IMHO. Not even because of the horcrux ultimately but because he had the humility to accept death and walk toward it. Would I call this an immoral voluntary human sacrifice? No. It's not done for ritual purposes. It's done to protect others from danger. So I think it's moral and sanctioned.

So I say all this to say, I don't think it was luck ( although I admit if it was just luck, I agree, it was OBSCENELY good luck ). I think the powers that be decided the season wasn't right. I wouldn't put it past Dumbles to bury parts of Lily near the Dursley house to impart protection. I've read about similar things as well. I have not read The Golden Bough so I'd love to hear from you what it has to say about luck. I will say this though, I think even in some parts of the ancient world it was understood that human sacrifice was murder, plain and simple, and it was eschewed. So an argument can be made that there was a moral understanding that human sacrifice was wrong even in ancient times. Which means, to me, there's a much deeper game going on here. Moral tests are being thrown about without being recognized as such and the outcomes of those decisions and their consequences really are what this war is about, not about Voldie's or Dumble's victory. Hence I think it might be worth taking yet another look at Dumbles, James and Lily.

Still WONDERFUL essay. It was a delight to read. Keep 'em coming!

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600ants December 21 2012, 13:01:02 UTC
What puzzles me is why bother to look for reasons and causes, if you know that ultimately everything boils down to powers that be feeling like it (or not). However I agree that, though utter bollocks otherwise (always imo), this theory works wonderfully for the HP universe. I noticed some time ago (around the time I stopped trying to make any sense of this great pile of rubbish) that there really is no cause and consequence in Harry Potter, but only "JKR said so". Because she felt like it. Or not.(Actually, you two might make brilliant pen palls - apparently she also believes that striving for *anything* is evil incarnate. Luckily since we weren't smitten down for cheating death with seat belts and chinin yet, if there is a god, it seems to think otherwise. (I wonder why an omnipotent being that has always been would be shit scared of us humankind pushing it off its throne...))

It *is* on-topic! Just on a more cosmic level.

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oryx_leucoryx December 21 2012, 17:48:47 UTC
You do realize the Potterverse is a fantasy universe and it's rules are different than those of the one we live in (whatever you may believe about the latter)? We don't know if there is/are any god(s) operating in the Potterverse. We don't know how close Potterverse magic is to a force of nature vs the actions of a sentient superbeing. The normal spells look like the former, but prophecy, wandlore and the actions of some magical objects look more like the latter. But from the existence of Felix Felicis potion we know that in the Potterverse luck is an actual force of nature that can be manipulated directly (in contrast with our universe, where 'luck' is what we call 'things happening in our favor for no discernible reason'). And Harry constantly has more luck than is reasonable to expect. If he played dice, he'd always roll a six (as Vimes said of Carrot, and one reason Pratchett got bored with Carrot's character and pushed him to the sidelines). Of course the reason Harry is so lucky is because Rowling can't write a realistic plot. But in-universe, it looks like someone harnessed the power of luck on his behalf.

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oryx_leucoryx December 21 2012, 17:59:14 UTC
Of course the reason Harry is so lucky is because Rowling can't write a realistic plot. But in-universe, it looks like someone harnessed the power of luck on his behalf.

Which makes me worried for UA! It is the same Harry, so he would be lucky, but luck makes for weak plots.

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