I am a religious minority. I am still coming to terms with what that means, both personally and in the larger world. I cannot celebrate in my preferred manner-- the only holiday I celebrate, for personal reasons, is the Winter Solstice-- because I live at home. I cannot stop celebrating Christmas, even though I feel uncomfortable with even a secular version, for the same reason. I, too, am one of the “sensitive” people.
I am an agnostic-leaning Deist. I believe in God. When people (face-to-face, not online) talk about God, they assume that because I believe in God, I believe in their God. I don’t-- their God is the Christian God, which includes belief in the divinity of Jesus/the Trinity. It's why I feel uncomfortable with so-called non-denominational prayer, because it's assumed that the speaker's god is everyone's god (and the unspoken everyone's god is the mainstream Protestant version
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I remember that conversation we had as well. :) I was thinking about it when I posted this, as you were one of the handful of my flist to whom I'd talked about the full extent of my spiritual beliefs prior to this.
The difficulty is compounded by the fact that Deist is a broad category of beliefs, and one Deist cannot speak for all.
The same complication exists in Druidry, as the one term can describe completely different belief systems. And within the organization I belong to, personal belief (or lack of belief) is always respected and key, so even within this one organization, "Druids" are also Christians, Pagans, Jews, Mormons ... or non-theists, like me. :)
I'm not going to hide.
I admire you for this. This was my first time posting about some of these things. I was nervous. I woke up this morning thinking, "Crap, I actually did post that LJ/DW entry! (which took a few days to write, giving me plenty of time to think of the wisdom of it) and probably have all manner of hairy comments in my email right now!" I've been
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Anyway, I arrived at the feast just in time for the prayer. I had no problem with the prayer; if people wanted to exercise their private beliefs, I would not stop them. But they literally grabbed and dragged me into the circle with them and held me by the hands while they prayed.What's sad here is that they not only assumed you were one with their beliefs, but that they were being nice and kind by including you. Some Christians tend to overdo this sort of thing
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What's sad here is that they not only assumed you were one with their beliefs, but that they were being nice and kind by including you. Some Christians tend to overdo this sort of thing.
And what if it happens the other way around? Beltain Bonfire or Litha celebration? Folks get carried away and drag a Christian into the dance... I do not believe that they will take that for granted.
I once followed a discussion where a man who belonged to a minority, however once someone prayed for his salvation, he panicked and kept on asking this person not to do that because his own soul was put at risk if they did that for him. Yet his pleas were ignored and this person insisted on praying because oh he was led astray, so they prayed harder for him.
This is what I find quite scary to be honest, that objections of a person is brushed aside like that.
I visit a church from time to time. Not because I am a Christian, but more that I do know that what I believe in has many faces and is always present, especially there.
I think most people in the UK would, if they were to tick a box on a form tick Church of England, but these days the UK is not a very religious country, I feel. Or perhaps it is becoming a more spiritual country, with people identifying as believing in something, but not really bothered about what. I run across a fair few pagans and people who call themselves heathens on various sites. I have seen that more and more in the last five or six years. I don't think here it matters much professionally what religion you are if any, I'm not sure it matters in Parliment, I am pretty sure it does not actually
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We've also seen a shift to "seasonal" from "overtly religious" in terms of holiday displays and the like, i.e. greenery in December instead of nativity displays. The difference seems to be that, over here, the conservative contingent is constantly bleating about a "war on Christmas" and doing things like berating store clerks who wish their customers "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas." I always think that they must be very insecure in their beliefs if they need to see them represented everywhere in order to remember exactly what they believe in! :)
My RL friend/family group is also a rather motley mix of various religious/spiritual beliefs. We also get on fine because, at the core, we believe in the same thing--kindness, acceptance, respect--even if we call it by different names.
I always think that they must be very insecure in their beliefs if they need to see them represented everywhere in order to remember exactly what they believe in! :)
Well, exactly.
at the core, we believe in the same thing--kindness, acceptance, respect--even if we call it by different names.
Yes, this is very true. It's love really, which can be very hard, admittedly, but not hate, which is a destructive force and very ugly.
This discussion caused me to look in a different direction based on US history. So I dredged up a copy of the original Constitution and Declaration of Independence. What I found was a 99.9% lack of ANY references to religion in either document except for what I call "Manner of speech". Last paragraph in the Constitution reads "in the year of Our Lord," and in the Declaration there was use of 'our sacred honor
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What I found was a 99.9% lack of ANY references to religion in either document
Funny how that is. ;)
Somewhere in the last hundred years - mostly due to education - Organized religion has taken a gut punch .... The organized religions, Christian or not, WANT desperately to regain control.
Which is why I think that it's not coincidental that the politicians most closely aligned with Organized Religion are always the first wanting to eviscerate education budgets ... or, in the case of Bush 2, water down education to a series of standardized tests. So instead of learning to write and debate and think and being judged competent in English based on that, my students take standardized tests where they fill out bubble sheets on whether they can identify modifiers or prepositions. Very little higher-level thinking is involved. When my students first started with me, they rebelled against the idea that classwork could involve more than just worksheets, that it might involve research or discussion or watching a movie together. School is less
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With a few exceptions I tend to look at what is being 'taught' (sorry - that should probably read 'fed') in schools now as an education is no such thing. It appears to me to be a combination of 'pat answers' and a serious "dumbing down". Students are not taught to think, reason or question. As you said - they're taught to deal with bubble sheets and standardized materials. They use calculators in elementary school ..... why? Elementary school is where one should be learning the basics of math, language and such so they have the tools to expand their learning as they grow and can cope with life's little chores if they don't push their educational envelope or desire to become serious thinkers, or scientists or engineers or artisans of some sort. I am appalled at what is currently considered a high school education or a basic college education. I recall asking a child of about 8 or 9 if they knew their Multiplication tables. I got a blank look and a "We use calculators so we don't need to know those things." response. And I won
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Dawn, I'm quite shocked at what you're all writing. Argentina has a supposedly Catholic majority but mostly the attitude is "whatever", if you want to go to church you do, or don't, nobody would imagine praying before the opening of any kind of public assembly and the separation of church and state is taken for granted. People of all religious (or not religious) backgrounds look up to the priests who live in shanty towns and risk their neck because they work against drug dealers and a rabbi has just been elected as head legislator for the Buenos Aires city council by an ample majority (he goes everywhere with the little thing on his head -don't know the word for it- so there's no confusion). Probably the provinces are a little more conservative but religion is very seldom an issue. We have a *lot* of problems here (*big* lot) but religious bigotry is not one of them and I find it very upsetting and frightening to think that in a country that is usually seen as far more advanced, people I care for feel so mistreated
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We have a *lot* of problems here (*big* lot) but religious bigotry is not one of them and I find it very upsetting and frightening to think that in a country that is usually seen as far more advanced, people I care for feel so mistreated.Things are ... complicated here. Nominally, we have freedom of religion. That is guaranteed by the Establishment Clause of the Constitution that forbids the government from favoring one religion over the other. However, that freedom is constantly under attack from those who, despite the Establishment Clause, believe that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation (even though some of the founders weren't even Christian) or those who would change the country into a Christian nation
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I worry that I will lose the regard of people I care about when they find out what I believe,
I have to hide my belief if I want to keep my friendships, familial tie, livelihood (if I am working for someone), or maybe even my freedom. Having no religion is illegal here. (I am an agnostic, leaning on atheist) I still think I am going to be single forever because of my belief.
When you experience that kind of isolation, come talk to me about persecution.
In the past, atheists were imprisoned, tortured, & killed like the ones you saw in concentration camps.
I worry that I will lose the regard of people I care about when they find out what I believe
I feel this way intensely. Sadly, it has been shown to be the case even with people who I considered open-minded and empathetic. I don't really want to talk about my own beliefs, but I'm sorry you're feeling isolated by yours.
Thanks, Viv. I don't even know if isolated is the word I'd use ... I have my husband, after all, and I am fortunate to have truly open-minded friends and family, for the most part. It's more just frustrating, to hear outsiders try to claim an experience they've never had but that I have had. And bungle it totally, to the point of offensiveness.
Comments 54
I am an agnostic-leaning Deist. I believe in God. When people (face-to-face, not online) talk about God, they assume that because I believe in God, I believe in their God. I don’t-- their God is the Christian God, which includes belief in the divinity of Jesus/the Trinity. It's why I feel uncomfortable with so-called non-denominational prayer, because it's assumed that the speaker's god is everyone's god (and the unspoken everyone's god is the mainstream Protestant version ( ... )
Reply
The difficulty is compounded by the fact that Deist is a broad category of beliefs, and one Deist cannot speak for all.
The same complication exists in Druidry, as the one term can describe completely different belief systems. And within the organization I belong to, personal belief (or lack of belief) is always respected and key, so even within this one organization, "Druids" are also Christians, Pagans, Jews, Mormons ... or non-theists, like me. :)
I'm not going to hide.
I admire you for this. This was my first time posting about some of these things. I was nervous. I woke up this morning thinking, "Crap, I actually did post that LJ/DW entry! (which took a few days to write, giving me plenty of time to think of the wisdom of it) and probably have all manner of hairy comments in my email right now!" I've been ( ... )
Reply
Reply
And what if it happens the other way around? Beltain Bonfire or Litha celebration? Folks get carried away and drag a Christian into the dance... I do not believe that they will take that for granted.
I once followed a discussion where a man who belonged to a minority, however once someone prayed for his salvation, he panicked and kept on asking this person not to do that because his own soul was put at risk if they did that for him. Yet his pleas were ignored and this person insisted on praying because oh he was led astray, so they prayed harder for him.
This is what I find quite scary to be honest, that objections of a person is brushed aside like that.
I visit a church from time to time. Not because I am a Christian, but more that I do know that what I believe in has many faces and is always present, especially there.
Reply
Reply
My RL friend/family group is also a rather motley mix of various religious/spiritual beliefs. We also get on fine because, at the core, we believe in the same thing--kindness, acceptance, respect--even if we call it by different names.
Reply
Well, exactly.
at the core, we believe in the same thing--kindness, acceptance, respect--even if we call it by different names.
Yes, this is very true. It's love really, which can be very hard, admittedly, but not hate, which is a destructive force and very ugly.
Reply
Reply
Funny how that is. ;)
Somewhere in the last hundred years - mostly due to education - Organized religion has taken a gut punch ....
The organized religions, Christian or not, WANT desperately to regain control.
Which is why I think that it's not coincidental that the politicians most closely aligned with Organized Religion are always the first wanting to eviscerate education budgets ... or, in the case of Bush 2, water down education to a series of standardized tests. So instead of learning to write and debate and think and being judged competent in English based on that, my students take standardized tests where they fill out bubble sheets on whether they can identify modifiers or prepositions. Very little higher-level thinking is involved. When my students first started with me, they rebelled against the idea that classwork could involve more than just worksheets, that it might involve research or discussion or watching a movie together. School is less ( ... )
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
I have to hide my belief if I want to keep my friendships, familial tie, livelihood (if I am working for someone), or maybe even my freedom. Having no religion is illegal here. (I am an agnostic, leaning on atheist) I still think I am going to be single forever because of my belief.
When you experience that kind of isolation, come talk to me about persecution.
In the past, atheists were imprisoned, tortured, & killed like the ones you saw in concentration camps.
Reply
Reply
I feel this way intensely. Sadly, it has been shown to be the case even with people who I considered open-minded and empathetic. I don't really want to talk about my own beliefs, but I'm sorry you're feeling isolated by yours.
Reply
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