The Roman Catholic Church

[mintogrubb]

When Jesus ascended into heaven , He left one Apostolic church behind him- not a ragged bunch of bickering and contesting factions. The church had unity for hundreds of years, until the Great Schism, when the eastern and western halves of the Church broke up

Comments

[efriden]

"Adolf Hitler was only able to come to power because of the co operation of the reigning Pope, and when Hitler was in charge, the Pope did not oppose him"

Two errors right there, my friend. Check your facts and do not proliferate falsehood!

[lurker]

Indeed. Here's a good article talking briefly on the subject.
http://www.catholic.com/library/how_pius_xii_protected_jews.asp

[mintogrubb]

Thank you - some actual evidence

[efriden]

Zentrumpartei

[efriden]

"it all began when the Pope, who lead the western catholic church, centered in Rome, started to raise funds by selling ' indulgences'. For a sum of money, you could buy one, and this was in effect, a free pardon for any sins you may have committed. hence, if you were rich, you could, in effect, buy yourself a way into heaven"

Oops! Several errors galore. The roots of the reformation do not lie with the selling of indulgences, but in the many causes for concern about the state of the Church that many people had validly held for several hundred years. There were several attempts at reformation made, some failed, some remained inside the Church. Indulgences may have been what triggered the Lutheran reformation, but Luther had other grievances too. Plus indulgences never worked the way you write here.

[theendless]

From what I understand from the history if it hadn't been Martin Luther it would have been someone else. I just think it's sad that reformation didn't become more of a church-wide thing, so that reform could occur within the church without the church being splintered. :/

I look forward to the day when we can all worship together as one visible body.

[susannah]

I totally agree. We may always have different expressions - just as humans have different personalities... but I would love to see... in town after town and city after city... people coming together in worship... even if that was just once a month... as a kind of public witness... and as a heartfelt expression of our faith and of our unity in Christ.

I'd like that kind of witness of "christians together" to be like a banner raised up - through worship in a fairly public place... and this desire could also be expressed through shared service of the community in little acts of love.

I believe this kind of coming together is already happening in many places, and I find that so encouraging.

We *can* come together in love.

[pastorlenny]

Happens in Red Bank every month.

[susannah]

I think that the Catholic Church has helped, and helps, hundreds of thousands of communities and millions of families, over all the world

[paedraggaidin]

I agree with all of this. Thank you. :)

[mintogrubb]

thank you for your response here.

my words in the OP may seem harsh, for I did not complain about the Orthodox tradition , or the Protestants. yet I set out , not to write about the church from a comprehensive and supportive POV, but to briefly put a case against it.

the catholic church has been charged with many things - but these are the issues. I hope that those within the RCC will take the opportunity to set the record straight.

It would appear that protestantism has judged Pope Pius too harshly - he did not openly oppose Hitler, for that would have done no good, it is argued, but we have Einstein himself praising the churches opposition to Adolf Hitler. Something worth mentioning to the next atheist who tries to lecture me on the evils of religion.
OK, I do not yet have enough evidence to successfully defend our catholic brothers and sisters against all charges laid against them as catholics, but i am hoping that more will come up.

[catholic_heart]

I do not yet have enough evidence to successfully defend our catholic brothers and sisters against all charges laid against them as catholics

Dude, I know you mean well, but honestly, we don't need you defending us. We're not looking to be defended at all. People are more than welcome to explore our faith, but we're not looking for an advocate, thanks. And if we were, I think we'd choose someone who is a little less loose with the facts.

[theendless]

I think, and I realize that I could be wrong here, that you don't understand the Roman Catholic stance on infallibility.

The Pope is not infallible, but certain doctrines that he proclaims are considered infallible, if they are pronounced ex cathedra. Admittedly it is sometimes hard to determine which statements are infallible and which are not, but Roman Catholics recognize sin and flaws within the Church just like any other church. (At least as far as I've heard from Catholic friends and from Catholic literature I've read...)

As for contraception. Roman Catholic people do limit the size of their families, but they do it through Natural Planning, which when used correctly is VERY successful. I may not agree with their position on artificial means of contraception, but they do have a very good plan when it comes to conception, one which actually allows their marriages not just to centre around uncontrolled and unlimited sex, but around the relationship with and without sex...

[tempus_aeterna]

Natural Family Planning isn't all that successful - this comes from some Catholic Priests as well as some studies. If you are very, very strict and only have sex once a month at the opposite end of the cycle, then it mostly works, but you have to be more strict than the info on Natural Family Planning states.

That being said, even if Natural Family Planning doesn't work, the Catholic Church does not state the you have to have as many kids as possible, so if you don't want kids you don't have sex. Your point was that the Church does not force anyone to have more kids than they can afford, and I agree with that.

[heyunyi]

I've always liked how Catholics will argue that NFP is as successful as the bc pill, and then turn around and criticize people who use birth control for not being open to children.

[efriden]

I will not go too much into specifics, because that would be too intimate (and could also relate to other people that I know, other than me and my wife) but I beg to differ. My wife and I have absolutely no problem conceiving and while she's breastfeeding she does not want to be on the pill. We only use condoms around ovulation for safety, she breastfed our daughter partly for over a year (by which time she was already cycling again) and our son still (he's seven months) and we only have the two planned children.

[catholic_heart]

Since this post is so wrought with grave misunderstandings and falsehoods, there's really not much to respond to. So I'll just leave you with a few links to better educate yourself. If you'd like to make a new post after bettering your understanding, that would be fine.

Doctrine of Infallibility

Galileo

A Rabbi's Perspective on Pius XII and the help he gave to the Jews during the Holocaust

As for the indulgences, that's a gross oversimplification of the causes for the Reformation. I'd suggest reading Alistair McGrath's Reformation Thought: An Introduction and maybe Richard Marius' Martin Luther: The Christian Between God and Death.

[theendless]

Great response. :)

[paedraggaidin]

Amen.

[lordhellebore]

Very interesting, that last link. Thanks for posting them.