(Untitled)

[mijopo]

Recently it's been my impression that the level of discourse in this group has deteriorated badly in terms of i) the presence of personal attacks and generally hateful comments and (ii) the quality of arguments

Comments

agree

[mr_marlboro]

I've never made personal comments. However, I've been attacked. I'm not an intellecutal like some of the members here. Yet that doesn't mean that intellectuals exempt us from the discourse. Its almost like the same attacks I endure here have more to do with class warfare.

Re: agree

[mijopo]

I've never made personal comments.

Right, I wasn't trying to single you out.

I'm not an intellecutal like some of the members here.
I don't really understand the point about your not being an intellectual or the suggestion that there is some kind of class warfare going on. Shouldn't your arguments stand on their own merits? Have people somehow suggested otherwise (I haven't read every subthread of recent discussions)? I'd be surprised if anyone here has suggested that only intellectuals should participate in debate and I don't get the sense that very many people in the group are intellectuals if by that you mean members of academia.

Re: agree

[sourdick]

I'd be surprised if anyone here has suggested that only intellectuals should participate

Hm, I might have said suggested something along the lines of only people with intellect should participate. My bad.

Re: agree

[macho_]

yeah, can you please clarify what you're saying here? i hope you're not saying that the OP is being exclusive because working class people are unable to make intelligent arguments free from hateful personal attacks. that would seem to me to be the real display of classism here.

i admittedly have not been following the community close enough to know the context this is all arising from, but it seems to me that mijopo is making a reasonable request in a mature and responsible way.

also

[mr_marlboro]

I also question the impartiality of this community and how openminded they may be to some issues (some even untouchable). For example, Canada's blind support of the Palestinian Genocide and Israeli Apartheid.

Re: also

[sourdick]

Its really hard not to be mean when you start talking about really silly things. There has to be a bar that is high enough to encourage intelligent discussion and when you go off on one of your... um.. open-minded.... rants, it can be hard to keep anything resembling a straight face.

The alternative is to lower the bar of discussions and end up with a crappy community.

Re: also

[mr_marlboro]

who are you to decide what and who is intellectual enough?

again, the opposition to my views have more to do with social class and politics than acutally having a fair discourse.

Re: also

[sourdick]

Personally I think you are ridiculous, but in terms of the discussion, the moderator has opened a thread discussing the state of the community and I am adding my point of view. It is very hard to take a political group seriously when you have openly stated your hated for entire groups of people and then feverishly justify it and backpeddle.

Your ideas are reasonable for discussion, but you do not have any type of evidence or logic to most of the things you support, so you end up saying that youre not an intellectual, and that almost everyone in the world agrees with you, but they just dont talk about it. How can any one argue against such bizarre an unverifyable claims?

[penlessej]

I think that what is largely contributing to the 'personal attacks' which you feel have become a problem are the low grade topics which are being discussed in this group lately. It is funny that John Manly issued his report last week and no one has said anything in this group about it...we have not even had a real discussion on Afghanistan. Instead I am being put in my place because I am not black.

The key to any good political discussion is clarity which demands a specific and focused debate through-out. I think we should stop these broad-stroke discussions that seem to be brought up only to stir shit and we should focus on more specific issues. For example, rather than talk about how immigration is hurting Canada in general do a little research and pull up an actual policy of the government regarding immigration and talk about that.

I think that with a more focused debate we will have more to offer and in the end more for each of us to walk away from the discussion with.

[penlessej]

Also remember that this group is not a soap box to proclaim your own political views. It is a place to bring up what you read in the news, what you hear on tv or how you perceive something going on or that has happened and getting the opinions and perceptions of those around you. There has been a string of posts this past month that scream manifesto as opposed to a push to get the ball rolling on some good discourse in politics.

[mr_marlboro]

"There has been a string of posts this past month that scream manifesto as opposed to a push to get the ball rolling on some good discourse in politics."

there you go again...

you are choosing and privilaging the exclusive domain of political scientists with what people actually consider to be politics. so i guess we should stick with just numbers, facts and statistics? fuzzy math then or reports (i.e. manly).

so i guess the topic of: "Canadian Ideas vs Lived experience from the immigrant perspective" is too broad of a topic for you? because that's a serious issue taht immigrants would be very interestd in.

[penlessej]

Actually the group is called Canadian Politics so it does kind of lead one to assume that the topics discussed will be political in nature.

And yes why shouldn't we stick with numbers, facts and statistics? That is how we get impartial, unbiased information. Ever hear the line 'the numbers don't lie'?

And yes the topic "Canadian Ideas vs Lived experience from the immigrant perspective" is much, much too broad. Perhaps you can get a real example of this 'Canadian idea' by doing exactly what I said visit http://www.cic.gc.ca/ and find a policy that you feel contradicts your personal experience and we can talk about that.

[macho_]

I see your "numbers don't lie" and raise you "Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Many human problems have not been solved through the scientific method, notably politics. Everyone has a bias, and no one should have to apologize for it. I still agree with the OP, of course, that people here need to think about reducing the number of ad hominem arguments.

[ms_interpret]

I think this can be boiled down to "don't feed the trolls" and/or "don't taunt the handicapped".

Honestly, some people are just too stupid to bother with, and getting all riled up by random stupidity really doesn't do anyone any good.

/public service announcement

[ms_interpret]

Thanks! :)

[ungarsfragile]

Sounds like a good official policy to me.