I've never participated in Yuletide so I'm only semi-informed about the debate, so I'm wondering what the reasoning is behind It cannot continue as it has been. It must change or end. Has this been explained somewhere?
I'm not a Yuletide person either, but I think it has to do with the enormous size and complicated process, which means automate various processes, or give up.
I think it has to do with the enormous size and complicated process I still don't see why that necessitates automating a system that didn't use to be automated - has it got more complicated than it used to be, or are the mods just unwilling to continue dealing with the level of complexity existing before? Some of the people objecting have asked why the mods couldn't just delegate those tasks to volunteers who are willing to put in the time, & I haven't seen anyone explain why that isn't practicable or advantageous. I guess my persnickety brain just wants to know if the changes introduced are necessary in the sense that Yuletide couldn't occur without them, as opposed to being the mods' preferred option but not a fundamental requirement for Yuletide to continue existing at all.
I'm not qualified to answer that question. My perception as a casual observer is that the thing has grown significantly since they invented it, but I haven't exactly done the math.
My default position is also "respect the mods" and I've loved Yuletide in the past. I completely the supported them through the move to the move to the AO3 and wasn't much bothered when the first announced that they'd be doing fandom eligibility by AO3 stats. I agree with you that using automation is the best way to get most of this work done.
The thing is, when people have asked for clarification on how eligibility decisions would happen, the mods for the most part ignored those questions or said vague things about how they'd work it out. Now that this is actually happening and huge fandoms have been included in the eligible list, people are questioning it and again either being ignored or told to stop complaining. I can understand the mods saying "We're too busy to make this change right now" but not when they also wouldn't respond to criticism or offers to volunteer last month, and when they never take feedback about how the challenge is run.
The mods' response to birchsalt's post at the comm yesterday upset me. Birchsalt raised what
( ... )
I see your point about wanting more fairness in the decisions about rare vs. non-rare. However, birchsalt's post was not simply a correction of specific fandoms. It was a long explanation of why zie didn't think this system should be used at all. I specifically disagree with this comment:
birchsalt: I fully acknowledge this is a transition year and that stuff is going to slip through! But feedback has to start somewhere, and although I have no desire to make a stink and make an impossible job harder it's in my (I could be totally wrong) opinion that it wouldn't be hard to wholesale remove categories now -- not with all the character-shifting and duplication-removal -- things aren't set in stone yet as far as I can see. Would've been inane to complain after requests were sent out. (emphasis mine)
As a result of this post, the mods had to skim through 94 comments to see if there was wank. It was a waste of their time; this system has already been used, so it won't be changed at this point. And yes, it is hard to remove those fandoms - it takes time.
( ... )
I see your point about wanting more fairness in the decisions about rare vs. non-rare.I wouldn't say that that's my point at all, though I understand why it's bothering some people. [ETA: Er, okay, it bothers me a bit but it's not my main point.] Like you've been saying though, we've always had some large fandoms in Yuletide and it doesn't keep us from requesting and writing incredibly rare ones. It doesn't keep Yuletide from being awesome! You and I are also both in favor of less work for Astolat and Elynross, though I guess we see that happening in different ways
( ... )
Yeah, I see that this year is unlikely to be all warm fuzzies, but I'm willing to stick it out. If I can get a little more done on my CamelotSolstice fic, I'll feel even more comfortable about it.
I think once nominations get put on AO3 and pretty much the whole process runs there, things may be smoother and involve less work for everyone. I'm hopeful, anyway. *crosses fingers*
Hope you find some fics to love this year! I'm already planning to do at least one NYR fic, if this person doesn't get that fandom for their regular request. It's just too awesome not to try! ^_^
You know, if people are saying "be grateful or else", then I agree with you that that's a bit... odd. Not a sentiment I would tend to go along with. O.o
I'm instead in the "In the choice between an imperfect YT and a nonexistent one, I want the imperfect one" camp. I'm also in the "Don't bug the mods when they're frantically getting last-minute changes in" camp, because overhauling the system is not a last-minute change that can be made. Whereas bringing back in accidentally excluded fandoms is a change that can be made right now, and that's my personal priority. People's MMV, of course.
(Some of the fandoms on that person's list should totally be eligible, though. There's some serious math problems going on around there.)
I've seen the mods mention how much work there was for the tag wranglers, but I haven't seen comments from the wranglers themselves. Would love links! I can only assume their job was a nightmare. -_-;; *hopes with you*
hhertzof says they're not taking any more tag wranglers from now until after YT is off the ground. I
( ... )
I primarily wasn't impressed with the "this should be easy, so I'm saying you ought to do it now" attitude. I mean, YT eligibility has never been easy. Certainly not when we have a major code change on our hands before signups can even start.
The thing is, I'd be glad to have this conversation... in January. Right now? It's already too late for this year. It was too late by the time nominations started. The system was already in place.
So yeah, the wanking makes me go O.o a bit. Except for the people who lost a fandom they nominated for what they feel aren't legitimate reasons, everyone else doesn't really have a stake in this. And those people have a complaint process to use. Many of them have even used it - successfully.
WELCOME TO MY HEAD. IT GOES ROUND AND ROUND IN CIRCLES. WANT A RIDE?
I GOT OFF, OKAY? I GET DIZZY AFTER A WHILE. ^o^
Most of the discussions about how much work the tag wranglers ended up is flocked, so I can't link, unfortunately.Wow, even just the one was clear enough! I did assume
( ... )
If I could muster any ire it'd be reserved for the eejits who insist on nominating big fandoms, especially the eejits who should (and do!) know better, but who somehow let their crazed enthusiasm for [BigFandom] overwhelm their judgment--I mean, they're the ones who're doin it rong. But I can't be arsed to muster; anyway the pleasure of being able to look down my nose at hooligans like that and feel smug about the appropriate smallness of my own fandoms is sufficient compensation. XD;
I did agree with the quibbler who quibbled that according to this year's system, it's not an "obscure or rarely written fandom" exchange, it's a "fandoms not well represented on AO3" exchange. I mean, in the interest of calling a spade a spade. But the spade remains a fine implement!
Pretty much, yes. If I care at all, it's to snort at people who can't figure out that their fandom is enormous. (Not talking about the borderline fandoms, here.)
Frankly, it's never completely been an "obscure or rarely written fandoms" challenge in its entirety, yet somehow we muddle along anyway. ^_^
(OMG, NO ONE IS GOING TO OFFER TO WRITE MY FANDOMS THIS YEAR, K! DOOMED, I TELL YOU. DOOMED!)
We do muddle along, and have a good time doing it!
Requesting: Laurence and Temeraire (Temeraire series); Sunshine and Constantine (McKinley - Sunshine); Sylvi and Ebon (McKinley - Pegasus*); aaaaaand #4 is still TBD. But it too will probably be interspecies romance, ahaha.
I'm not asking for Aoi Hana this year because the manga is pretty much delivering everything one could hope for, if slowly.
What are YOU requesting, if I may ask?
* her latest, which is nominated courtesy of yrs trly. XD;
YOU MAKE ME WISH I HAD READ SUNSHINE ALREADY. *is slow*
I see your interspecies kink and raise you a first-love kink. -_-;;;
Aoi Hana IS my dearly wished for fic, yes. So I've left if off the list, too. (Snagged a new fan! Her name is Emei and her first words were "How so pretty?")
Looking at your list, I think you may actually get fic this year. \o/
I nommed 6 things in a fit of idekw. But I'm going with Beatrice (Achebe - Anthills on the Savannah) (on the theory that this may actually happen before the heat death of the universe), Hazumu/Tomoyo/Yasuna (Kashimashi), any characters from Dennou Coil, and Uiharu/Saten (Railgun). Leaving off Mokke was a blow to my SOOOOOUL, I tell you. Not that anyone offered to write for it last year.
Someone asked for the manga version of Nausicaa, and what do you know, I just happen to have Kaifu's copy of the whole thing! God, it's gorgeous. Totally worth muddling through again if I get that one.
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The thing is, when people have asked for clarification on how eligibility decisions would happen, the mods for the most part ignored those questions or said vague things about how they'd work it out. Now that this is actually happening and huge fandoms have been included in the eligible list, people are questioning it and again either being ignored or told to stop complaining. I can understand the mods saying "We're too busy to make this change right now" but not when they also wouldn't respond to criticism or offers to volunteer last month, and when they never take feedback about how the challenge is run.
The mods' response to birchsalt's post at the comm yesterday upset me. Birchsalt raised what ( ... )
Reply
birchsalt: I fully acknowledge this is a transition year and that stuff is going to slip through! But feedback has to start somewhere, and although I have no desire to make a stink and make an impossible job harder it's in my (I could be totally wrong) opinion that it wouldn't be hard to wholesale remove categories now -- not with all the character-shifting and duplication-removal -- things aren't set in stone yet as far as I can see. Would've been inane to complain after requests were sent out. (emphasis mine)
As a result of this post, the mods had to skim through 94 comments to see if there was wank. It was a waste of their time; this system has already been used, so it won't be changed at this point. And yes, it is hard to remove those fandoms - it takes time. ( ... )
Reply
Reply
Yeah, I see that this year is unlikely to be all warm fuzzies, but I'm willing to stick it out. If I can get a little more done on my CamelotSolstice fic, I'll feel even more comfortable about it.
I think once nominations get put on AO3 and pretty much the whole process runs there, things may be smoother and involve less work for everyone. I'm hopeful, anyway. *crosses fingers*
Hope you find some fics to love this year! I'm already planning to do at least one NYR fic, if this person doesn't get that fandom for their regular request. It's just too awesome not to try! ^_^
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
I'm instead in the "In the choice between an imperfect YT and a nonexistent one, I want the imperfect one" camp. I'm also in the "Don't bug the mods when they're frantically getting last-minute changes in" camp, because overhauling the system is not a last-minute change that can be made. Whereas bringing back in accidentally excluded fandoms is a change that can be made right now, and that's my personal priority. People's MMV, of course.
(Some of the fandoms on that person's list should totally be eligible, though. There's some serious math problems going on around there.)
I've seen the mods mention how much work there was for the tag wranglers, but I haven't seen comments from the wranglers themselves. Would love links! I can only assume their job was a nightmare. -_-;; *hopes with you*
hhertzof says they're not taking any more tag wranglers from now until after YT is off the ground. I ( ... )
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
I primarily wasn't impressed with the "this should be easy, so I'm saying you ought to do it now" attitude. I mean, YT eligibility has never been easy. Certainly not when we have a major code change on our hands before signups can even start.
The thing is, I'd be glad to have this conversation... in January. Right now? It's already too late for this year. It was too late by the time nominations started. The system was already in place.
So yeah, the wanking makes me go O.o a bit. Except for the people who lost a fandom they nominated for what they feel aren't legitimate reasons, everyone else doesn't really have a stake in this. And those people have a complaint process to use. Many of them have even used it - successfully.
WELCOME TO MY HEAD. IT GOES ROUND AND ROUND IN CIRCLES. WANT A RIDE?
I GOT OFF, OKAY? I GET DIZZY AFTER A WHILE. ^o^
Most of the discussions about how much work the tag wranglers ended up is flocked, so I can't link, unfortunately.Wow, even just the one was clear enough! I did assume ( ... )
Reply
I did agree with the quibbler who quibbled that according to this year's system, it's not an "obscure or rarely written fandom" exchange, it's a "fandoms not well represented on AO3" exchange. I mean, in the interest of calling a spade a spade. But the spade remains a fine implement!
Reply
Frankly, it's never completely been an "obscure or rarely written fandoms" challenge in its entirety, yet somehow we muddle along anyway. ^_^
(OMG, NO ONE IS GOING TO OFFER TO WRITE MY FANDOMS THIS YEAR, K! DOOMED, I TELL YOU. DOOMED!)
(What are you requesting, if I may ask?)
Reply
Requesting: Laurence and Temeraire (Temeraire series); Sunshine and Constantine (McKinley - Sunshine); Sylvi and Ebon (McKinley - Pegasus*); aaaaaand #4 is still TBD. But it too will probably be interspecies romance, ahaha.
I'm not asking for Aoi Hana this year because the manga is pretty much delivering everything one could hope for, if slowly.
What are YOU requesting, if I may ask?
* her latest, which is nominated courtesy of yrs trly. XD;
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I see your interspecies kink and raise you a first-love kink. -_-;;;
Aoi Hana IS my dearly wished for fic, yes. So I've left if off the list, too. (Snagged a new fan! Her name is Emei and her first words were "How so pretty?")
Looking at your list, I think you may actually get fic this year. \o/
I nommed 6 things in a fit of idekw. But I'm going with Beatrice (Achebe - Anthills on the Savannah) (on the theory that this may actually happen before the heat death of the universe), Hazumu/Tomoyo/Yasuna (Kashimashi), any characters from Dennou Coil, and Uiharu/Saten (Railgun). Leaving off Mokke was a blow to my SOOOOOUL, I tell you. Not that anyone offered to write for it last year.
Someone asked for the manga version of Nausicaa, and what do you know, I just happen to have Kaifu's copy of the whole thing! God, it's gorgeous. Totally worth muddling through again if I get that one.
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