But really all we want are for Sam and Dean to love each other (in a PG-13 fraternal way acceptable for the general viewing public, of course *wink*) and have some kick-ass adventures with guns and dangerous, pokey objects in a noisy black car that goes fast.
And this:
Supernatural is meant for an audience that wants dramatic escapism, not dramatic realism or dramatic … drama-ism
And you hit the nail in the head with this:
It was the opposing force that was at war with what they wanted and how they approached/dealt with things, their worldviews, and was almost a separate entity beyond who they were as individuals. But it seems what we saw in the early part of S8 was that Sam and Dean’s feelings for each other became the conflict.
The first 10 eps feel like a different show, but I'm happy that the last three eps have had a lot of heart and soul in them. \o/
I'm happy that the last three eps have had a lot of heart and soul in them. \o/
Me, too! And so relieved. I'd rather be writing hyper-spaz posts that abuse emoticons and exclamation marks about how great everything is rather than meta like this.
I'm not sure what I would have written in response if I had written this after 8.10. Now, having seen the latest episodes I have them to guide my thoughts. My gut tells me Jeremy was attempting to clean up after Sera prior to moving on to the story he wanted to tell.
I agree that Sam and Dean's acceptance and understanding of each other was lacking. Sam was actually so emotionally void I thought his soul was missing again. How he got to that place should have been shown. Then as a viewer I'd get the decisions he made. Deans story gave me plenty to understand why he trusted Benny.
I'm happy the story seems to be off on a new path. I have Hope that wasn't there a month ago.
I'm not sure what I would have written in response if I had written this after 8.10.
I think fandom was at an all time low after that episode aired (I know I was pretty exasperated). I think if I'd posted this that week, the discussion threads would be very different. I'm happy, though, that SPN seems to be finding its groove finally. I agree with you about Carver closing off Gamble's story (see my reply to galathea_snb's comment above for more if you're interested). :)
How he got to that place should have been shown.
Yes, it should've. We got lots of flashbacks showing how Sam was with Amelia and how their relationship evolved through mutual emotional devastation/dependency, but it was important for us to see Sam before Amelia and get a sense of his head space (and now I'm laughing at the idea of flashbacks within a flashback). There's much to be said about showing vs. telling. We were told a lot about how Sam was feeling (or else left to infer based on his "actions" or inaction), but we weren't really shown. A great use
( ... )
Hi, i stumbled across this post and i love it - so i had to comment lol
I agree 100% with this post. Thank You.
The arguing between the brothers, in the first half of season 8, felt contrived and just put there because it was drama. It just felt like a lot of the issues could have been resolved if the brothers actually spoke to each other but instead we got both of them refusing to see each others’ viewpoints even though they themselves once held them So the arguing just left me confused and frustrated
( ... )
The arguing between the brothers, in the first half of season 8, felt contrived and just put there because it was drama
YES! Manufactured! Almost like SPN forgot it's own history. I'd really like to give the writers the benefit of the doubt, but I feel like they collectively dropped the ball here by failing to create credible drama that made sense with Sam and Dean's past. And it was so frustrating.
we never got more information, no flasbacks, no conversations with Amelia and/or Dean about what Sam went through
It's the tell and not the showing problem (again). We seem to get a lot of this, I feel, with Sam's story lines and it's a big, fat pitfall whenever a show jumps forward in time, esp. when something major has happened. It's clear that Carver was trying to create some tension by not showing what exactly happened with Sam right away (and also not linger on a story with the boy apart by skipping that year as it's clear they think the audience will freak out if Sam and Dean are apart for any extended period of time, which
( ... )
Hi. I found this via spn_heavymeta, and I wanted to thank you for your excellent analysis of the first half of the season.
But it seems what we saw in the early part of S8 was that Sam and Dean’s feelings for each other became the conflict.I think I would say that the basic premise of the show is that these are two people who discovered that they are both happier and more capable together, who were then informed by the whole universe - starting with John (who loved them but wanted them to behave in ways that wouldn't let them function as a partnership) and moving up to demons (who wanted them at odds) and angels (who wanted to use them for their own purposes) - that they weren't allowed to just be together and do their job
( ... )
The trouble with season eight is that the main conflict was not about them at all: it was a battle of wills between Kevin and Crowley
So on point! This is a really good point, and one that highlights a major difference between this season and past seasons. It's funny how conflict and motivation are intertwined--they're often stuck together, but not always. And this season shows that.
I think a lot of the problem stems from the fact that the show needs conflict on the mythic scale and on the personal scale. Usually, these two things have been tied together. But here they were disconnected, which meant that Sam and Dean's arguments necessarily looked manufactured.
I agree 110%. I played a little game at the end of S5 and teased apart conflict for every season up to that point, then wrote a post discussing exactly what you mention here. :) It would be interesting to redo this exercise for S6-S8 and see how things compare with how the season was perceived to hold together.
a lot of what we feel for them comes from our
( ... )
This is a great meta. The conflict was built on the wrong things and it really ruined the first half of the season for me. I'm not certain the second half can take that away, but the last 2 episodes have me hoping. The one thing I am going to need is SEEING how Sam reacted to Dean's disappearance. Yes, I can believe he shattered but devoting only 2 sentences to it "I ran", making Sam sound like a coward and "My world imploded" frankly isn't enough for me. I need to see the show acknowledge Sam's shattering when Dean disappeared. I shouldn't have to make up the plausible scenario in my mind. So, I'm still holding my breath on how I will end up feeling about this season.
I am going to need is SEEING how Sam reacted to Dean's disappearance.
I was hopeful with the number of flashbacks we were getting in the beginning of the season that we'd see Sam before he hit the dog and met Amelia. Unfortunately that didn't happen (obviously), and even though I'd like to think we could still get to experience what Sam experienced, I'm not so sure that SPN is going to take us back that far again. It feels like we're finally gaining some forward momentum this season and (even though from a fannish perspective it would be satisfying) flashing back to that storyline in that sort of detail may be more of a distraction. :(
I shouldn't have to make up the plausible scenario in my mind.
I agree. But that's what fanfic is for!
I'm still holding my breath on how I will end up feeling about this season.I'm still waiting to see if the writers are going to address the dark figure watching Sam in 8x01 and explain how Sam just happened to leave Amelia and then walk into Rufus' cabin when Dean just happened to have
( ... )
Even if we don't see what Sam went through when Dean disappeared, I hope they at least allow him to talk about it somewhere down the road. It is the elephant in the room and I am going to have real trouble connecting with this season if it is never resolved.
I'm still waiting to see if the writers are going to address the dark figure watching Sam in 8x01 and explain how Sam just happened to leave Amelia and then walk into Rufus' cabin when Dean just happened to have newly escaped Purgatory.
According to writer interviews,we found out in Torn and Frayed. It was Don. So the Amelia story that never got properly fleshed out also includes a shadowy figure that was so unexplained the writers had to tell us in an interview who it was. I have a faint hope that the writers are fooling us, but really, I think it was Don and that is that.
I hope they at least allow him to talk about it somewhere down the road. It is the elephant in the room and I am going to have real trouble connecting with this season if it is never resolved.
Ditto.
According to writer interviews,we found out in Torn and Frayed. It was Don.
Really, Show? That's how you reveal things, in interviews? :( Show, you're killing me. *raises fists at the sky*
Obviously I have to start reading all the interviews. Do you by chance remember which writer the interview was with so I can try to track it down and then poke my eyeballs out with a spork while reading it? Don? What a let down. *meh face times a billiontrillion to the millionth power*
Comments 63
But really all we want are for Sam and Dean to love each other (in a PG-13 fraternal way acceptable for the general viewing public, of course *wink*) and have some kick-ass adventures with guns and dangerous, pokey objects in a noisy black car that goes fast.
And this:
Supernatural is meant for an audience that wants dramatic escapism, not dramatic realism or dramatic … drama-ism
And you hit the nail in the head with this:
It was the opposing force that was at war with what they wanted and how they approached/dealt with things, their worldviews, and was almost a separate entity beyond who they were as individuals. But it seems what we saw in the early part of S8 was that Sam and Dean’s feelings for each other became the conflict.
The first 10 eps feel like a different show, but I'm happy that the last three eps have had a lot of heart and soul in them. \o/
Reply
Me, too! And so relieved. I'd rather be writing hyper-spaz posts that abuse emoticons and exclamation marks about how great everything is rather than meta like this.
Reply
I agree that Sam and Dean's acceptance and understanding of each other was lacking. Sam was actually so emotionally void I thought his soul was missing again. How he got to that place should have been shown. Then as a viewer I'd get the decisions he made. Deans story gave me plenty to understand why he trusted Benny.
I'm happy the story seems to be off on a new path. I have Hope that wasn't there a month ago.
Reply
I think fandom was at an all time low after that episode aired (I know I was pretty exasperated). I think if I'd posted this that week, the discussion threads would be very different. I'm happy, though, that SPN seems to be finding its groove finally. I agree with you about Carver closing off Gamble's story (see my reply to galathea_snb's comment above for more if you're interested). :)
How he got to that place should have been shown.
Yes, it should've. We got lots of flashbacks showing how Sam was with Amelia and how their relationship evolved through mutual emotional devastation/dependency, but it was important for us to see Sam before Amelia and get a sense of his head space (and now I'm laughing at the idea of flashbacks within a flashback). There's much to be said about showing vs. telling. We were told a lot about how Sam was feeling (or else left to infer based on his "actions" or inaction), but we weren't really shown. A great use ( ... )
Reply
I agree 100% with this post. Thank You.
The arguing between the brothers, in the first half of season 8, felt contrived and just put there because it was drama. It just felt like a lot of the issues could have been resolved if the brothers actually spoke to each other but instead we got both of them refusing to see each others’ viewpoints even though they themselves once held them So the arguing just left me confused and frustrated ( ... )
Reply
YES! Manufactured! Almost like SPN forgot it's own history. I'd really like to give the writers the benefit of the doubt, but I feel like they collectively dropped the ball here by failing to create credible drama that made sense with Sam and Dean's past. And it was so frustrating.
we never got more information, no flasbacks, no conversations with Amelia and/or Dean about what Sam went through
It's the tell and not the showing problem (again). We seem to get a lot of this, I feel, with Sam's story lines and it's a big, fat pitfall whenever a show jumps forward in time, esp. when something major has happened. It's clear that Carver was trying to create some tension by not showing what exactly happened with Sam right away (and also not linger on a story with the boy apart by skipping that year as it's clear they think the audience will freak out if Sam and Dean are apart for any extended period of time, which ( ... )
Reply
But it seems what we saw in the early part of S8 was that Sam and Dean’s feelings for each other became the conflict.I think I would say that the basic premise of the show is that these are two people who discovered that they are both happier and more capable together, who were then informed by the whole universe - starting with John (who loved them but wanted them to behave in ways that wouldn't let them function as a partnership) and moving up to demons (who wanted them at odds) and angels (who wanted to use them for their own purposes) - that they weren't allowed to just be together and do their job ( ... )
Reply
So on point! This is a really good point, and one that highlights a major difference between this season and past seasons. It's funny how conflict and motivation are intertwined--they're often stuck together, but not always. And this season shows that.
I think a lot of the problem stems from the fact that the show needs conflict on the mythic scale and on the personal scale. Usually, these two things have been tied together. But here they were disconnected, which meant that Sam and Dean's arguments necessarily looked manufactured.
I agree 110%. I played a little game at the end of S5 and teased apart conflict for every season up to that point, then wrote a post discussing exactly what you mention here. :) It would be interesting to redo this exercise for S6-S8 and see how things compare with how the season was perceived to hold together.
a lot of what we feel for them comes from our ( ... )
Reply
Reply
I was hopeful with the number of flashbacks we were getting in the beginning of the season that we'd see Sam before he hit the dog and met Amelia. Unfortunately that didn't happen (obviously), and even though I'd like to think we could still get to experience what Sam experienced, I'm not so sure that SPN is going to take us back that far again. It feels like we're finally gaining some forward momentum this season and (even though from a fannish perspective it would be satisfying) flashing back to that storyline in that sort of detail may be more of a distraction. :(
I shouldn't have to make up the plausible scenario in my mind.
I agree. But that's what fanfic is for!
I'm still holding my breath on how I will end up feeling about this season.I'm still waiting to see if the writers are going to address the dark figure watching Sam in 8x01 and explain how Sam just happened to leave Amelia and then walk into Rufus' cabin when Dean just happened to have ( ... )
Reply
I'm still waiting to see if the writers are going to address the dark figure watching Sam in 8x01 and explain how Sam just happened to leave Amelia and then walk into Rufus' cabin when Dean just happened to have newly escaped Purgatory.
According to writer interviews,we found out in Torn and Frayed. It was Don. So the Amelia story that never got properly fleshed out also includes a shadowy figure that was so unexplained the writers had to tell us in an interview who it was. I have a faint hope that the writers are fooling us, but really, I think it was Don and that is that.
Reply
Ditto.
According to writer interviews,we found out in Torn and Frayed. It was Don.
Really, Show? That's how you reveal things, in interviews? :( Show, you're killing me. *raises fists at the sky*
Obviously I have to start reading all the interviews. Do you by chance remember which writer the interview was with so I can try to track it down and then poke my eyeballs out with a spork while reading it? Don? What a let down. *meh face times a billiontrillion to the millionth power*
BTW, thanks so much for the info!
Reply
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