Huh, I kind of assumed that the creepy kids were twins. Rebecca's diary had stuff only about being pregnant and if she'd already had one kid at that point, I think that she would've mentioned it in the diary. Plus Rebecca's dad threatening her with the baby's future sounds more effective if she didn't have a kid already. But yes, the creepy!boy did look older than the girl (eating rats=fountain of youth??) and identical creepy!girl!twins would've been the most effective for random lurking
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It would make sense that they were twins. However, her not mentioning it doesn't prove she didn't have another baby after or before the pregnancy discussed in the diary or that she didn't have another unfound diary. Rebecca hung herself when she was 20, so those two kids (twins) or the eldest of the two couldn't be older than maybe 10 or 12. *is annoyed that the boy looked/sounded older than this* But I think on my part this was silly to bring up because it's a never ending discussion that means nothing in the long run.
But I feel the need to mention that this ep happened a month after 4x10 so a lot has happened to the boys since that one and having this conversation again probably doesn't feel as repetitive to them as it does to usIf looked at from the characters' perspective as if they were real people processing/living those lives I agree with you. But from an audience of a TV show point of view, I still think this was dragged out too long. If we had 40 episodes a season then the story could afford to take its time, but we
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But I think on my part this was silly to bring up because it's a never ending discussion that means nothing in the long run.
Well, it's a never-ending discussion, yes, but it ties into the whole creepy!dude ex machina thing and the resolution of the story, so it's not silly to bring it up.
But from an audience of a TV show point of view, I still think this was dragged out too long.
*deep sigh* I know, I know. And I do agree with you. That was just me desperately attempting to justify the boys' discussion somehow because I want the return-from-hiatus ep be totally cool and awesome, no matter what. *is lame*
It's this internal shift, the fact that I think he now questions the most fundamental part of himself, the part he's always fallen back on --Yes, it's an internal shift but I didn't really see it. That might just be my problem, though. Dean's angsting about the torture so much that the fact he even enjoyed it doesn't really register with me; also, because Dean would've hunted nonstop enjoyment or not, I can't really track the
( ... )
That was just me desperately attempting to justify the boys' discussion somehow because I want the return-from-hiatus ep be totally cool and awesome, no matter what. *is lame*
Aww, you are not lame. And I wish this season was progressing better than it is and I wasn't so disgruntled with its pace and weirdly weighted plot emphasis because I want every episode to be awesome and cool and blow me away.
Yes, it's an internal shift but I didn't really see it. That might just be my problem, though.OK, I see what you're saying. You're not the only one who has mentioned this blackjedii wrote a meta on this and llywela has been discussing this in her thread to this post. It seems strange that Dean's acting like pre-Hell Dean and on the other hand it seems like maybe he'd be repressing (and wouldn't it be disturbing and sad if Dean lost what makes him essentially Dean ... jokes, horndoggyness, impulse control issues?). I can see both sides to the argument and agree with parts of both of them. But, like I was telling llywela, I reached
( ... )
I scanned your meta last night and will come back and read it more carefully and probably write a really long reply (just warning you!). :) I love that we can have long reply/comment posts at each others journals! *smish*
LOVED your writer's room bit!
I'm glad! I needed some crack-silliness after thinking much too hard about all the things that have been niggling at me about this season that somehow manifested as GRRRR 4x11.
I trust you to be critical in a fair, reasoned fashion
Heh. My "just warning you" was more like a "warning: I'm going to probably pollute your journal with my blabber, sorry" instead of a "warning: I'm going to be overly critical or hunt you down (or something)".
Rose-colored glasses are good. I want to find mine and wear them every Thursday night. 8D
THAT. THAT is exactly how this episode was imagined! <3 <3 <3 Although you missed the part where Carver makes comments about pregnant women for some weird reason. But Gamble was spot-on. ;)
As for the episode, bleh, I'm half-afraid of what I'd write but I might start getting meta-y and grouchy tomorrow. The one thing I have to add though is that the girl and the boy are in fact twins, there was at least one referencee of "OUT OF NOWHERE THE TWIN!!" in the sides. And they were supposedly going to be albino too.
Carver makes comments about pregnant women for some weird reason
*dies laughing* Oh, how could I have forgotten that!??! Apparently, he got his pregnant woman fix in 4x11 by creating in incestuous pregnancy with two children turned savage by their abusive father/grandfather. For a moment, I thought the fotw's (family of the week) last name was "Carver" instead of "Carter" and thought he was a LITTLE CRAZY to lend his surname to the victim family. Thankfully that wasn't the case, otherwise I'd have to wonder about him, esp. with the whole pregnancy fixation thing. O_o
I might start getting meta-y and grouchy tomorrow.
I certainly didn't set out to write what I ended up writing. But I know what you're saying. I've stopped writing meta and haven't been doing episode reactions of any substance for a long time because I don't want to be a wet blanket. Obviously, this time around I lost my filter and posted this before I pressed delete.
there was at least one referencee of "OUT OF NOWHERE THE TWIN!!" in the sides. And they were
( ... )
last name was "Carver" instead of "Carter" and thought he was a LITTLE CRAZY to lend his surname to the victim family. Perhaps we are looking at the episode the wrong way then and instead of trying to compare it to the Winchester's freaky life, Family Remains was the horrifying look into the dysfunctional life of a writer gone insane. Insane with trying to please Eric Kripke and his obsession with gore and fryers!
You're still doing better than I am I think. I get around to writing some notes on a piece of paper, going "sfblubbefs" and shutting the paper away in a book only to find it about three weeks later when I completely forget what the point was. That might classify me as a torn-up couch cover or something, I'm not sure.
Obviously the albino thing didn't translate, so I have to wonder if the twin thing didn't translate eitherI'm not 100% about the albino, it may have simply come from the fact that they were disfigured or that they avoided the light. I'm still trying to google around and find them again
( ... )
the horrifying look into the dysfunctional life of a writer gone insane. Insane with trying to please Eric Kripke and his obsession with gore and fryers!
*sporfle* I think also Kripke might be a little obsessed with Dean. ;) Because according to him "Dean is a HERO!" (do you remember that interview?) Which he is, of course, but maybe not the ONLY hero on the Show.
I get around to writing some notes on a piece of paper, going "sfblubbefs" and shutting the paper away in a book only to find it about three weeks later when I completely forget what the point was.
Aww, *pets*. My hard drive is full of aborted meta. It is scary.
you'd think her diary would have noted having a second child with the first one.
Unless that diary only documented the first born and not the second.
Unless she was unconscious during labor which still makes no sense.
Unless she was abducted by aliens and impregnated and gave birth in a time warp whereby she lost no time on Earth and her memory was wiped clean upon her instantaneous "return".
Very good meta here, and good point about the twins. That would have been ten times more awesome. I felt it was a cop out when Dean took on the brother, and the dad had to deal with the girl, but I get why they did it. These are supposed to be the heroes, and there's only two of them. They've gotta keep some shine.
Still, it would have been much more awesome.
I though the ending was a bit tacked on, yeah, since it's basically the exact conversation they had last ep. If they'd let it all be revealed in this episode it would have had a much stronger impact. It did tie in to what hell does to a person nicely though, how you can turn into a rabid animal under the right circumstances.
I think I'm gonna have to make me a "time for The Talk again" icon.
These are supposed to be the heroes, and there's only two of them. They've gotta keep some shine
Yes. I also think it was done intentionally for the exact same reasons. I just tend to think drama is made by breaking your characters and then redeeming them. There's nothing more satisfying than seeing fictional characters being put through the ringer and then come out the other side stronger, better, and with more insight. The payoff/growth is proportional to how low they went. And I like it when stories aren't afraid to go there--you can't redeem a character who never did anything wrong.
Part of me is glad Dean didn't kill the girl, but part of me is disappointed that Show didn't have the guts to do the almost unthinkable. At least it would've been a surprise and earned some respect/admiration for having the guts to really dig deep into Dean's character and take him to a place I thought was untouchable. But this is SPN, not BSG.
I added a paragraph to this post about this last night in case you're interested. :)
Part of me is glad Dean didn't kill the girl, but part of me is disappointed that Show didn't have the guts to do the almost unthinkable. At least it would've been a surprise and earned some respect/admiration for having the guts to really dig deep into Dean's character and take him to a place I thought was untouchable. But this is SPN, not BSG
If this episode had come earlier in the season, maybe. As is they've been wallowing in depressed and emo doom and gloom for a good long time now. It's the middle of the season, time to start solving some issues, not bundle a bunch of new ones on top.
I felt cheap for me too, but logically it was the right choice to make.
As for BSG, that show has a lot more characters to go around, so no matter how dark they take certain characters, they always have others they can focus on from time to time and have lighter moments.
If this episode had come earlier in the season, maybe ... time to start solving some issues, not bundle a bunch of new ones on top.
Exactly. PACING. I wrote about this exact thing in my first reply to you but I deleted that part because it got long and I felt it sounded ranty. But, yes ... *high fives you*! Dean's Hell revelations should've happened sooner. Maybe Kripke and Co. needed Dean to repress a little so they could get the mytharc plot underway and introduced angels and new!Ruby and such, but that doesn't mean they needed to leave Dean's reveals until mid-season. Maybe a re-tooled version of "YF" (4x06) might've been the time to pull back Dean's Hell curtain so we could be further down the trail by now. What's going on with Lilith? How many seals have been broken? Have more angels died? Where's slashed up Ruby now? What happened to Sam and Dean's whole argument about Sam not using his powers because God didn't want him to--was there a resolution to that? What's up with Sam's powers not affecting a WED ... aren't
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Yes, this counts as meta. And dolls are scary. They just are. Especially the damn ones that have those creepy eyes that close when you lay them down, but then one breaks and stays half open all the time. *shivers* Gah! Hate them so much
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but then one breaks and stays half open all the time
I will never be able to think of those dolls again without silently freaking out. D: Have you ever seen any of the "Child's Play" movies with Chucky the murderous doll? Oh, man, I had nightmares for YEARS! Chucky did for me what Jaws did for me for swimming.
Call it Hell-Stockholm Syndrome. I mean, it was years, not months.
*nods* I'm OK with Dean having "enjoyed torturing other people". What I mean to say is: I'm OK with the choice the writers made to have him done that and enjoyed it. I like the idea of him questioning the ONE thing he's been sure of all these years: his belief that he's "THE GOOD GUY". I'm all for shaking up the foundation a little and seeing what happens.
the twin thing would've been brilliant but might have seemed slightly ... not cliche but sort of been-there-done-that in a way.Yeah, I can see that. I thought the same thing, too, and have no real answer to that other than I think identical twins in this episode would've been a better place
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But I feel the need to mention that this ep happened a month after 4x10 so a lot has happened to the boys since that one and having this conversation again probably doesn't feel as repetitive to them as it does to usIf looked at from the characters' perspective as if they were real people processing/living those lives I agree with you. But from an audience of a TV show point of view, I still think this was dragged out too long. If we had 40 episodes a season then the story could afford to take its time, but we ( ... )
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Well, it's a never-ending discussion, yes, but it ties into the whole creepy!dude ex machina thing and the resolution of the story, so it's not silly to bring it up.
But from an audience of a TV show point of view, I still think this was dragged out too long.
*deep sigh* I know, I know. And I do agree with you. That was just me desperately attempting to justify the boys' discussion somehow because I want the return-from-hiatus ep be totally cool and awesome, no matter what. *is lame*
It's this internal shift, the fact that I think he now questions the most fundamental part of himself, the part he's always fallen back on --Yes, it's an internal shift but I didn't really see it. That might just be my problem, though. Dean's angsting about the torture so much that the fact he even enjoyed it doesn't really register with me; also, because Dean would've hunted nonstop enjoyment or not, I can't really track the ( ... )
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Aww, you are not lame. And I wish this season was progressing better than it is and I wasn't so disgruntled with its pace and weirdly weighted plot emphasis because I want every episode to be awesome and cool and blow me away.
Yes, it's an internal shift but I didn't really see it. That might just be my problem, though.OK, I see what you're saying. You're not the only one who has mentioned this blackjedii wrote a meta on this and llywela has been discussing this in her thread to this post. It seems strange that Dean's acting like pre-Hell Dean and on the other hand it seems like maybe he'd be repressing (and wouldn't it be disturbing and sad if Dean lost what makes him essentially Dean ... jokes, horndoggyness, impulse control issues?). I can see both sides to the argument and agree with parts of both of them. But, like I was telling llywela, I reached ( ... )
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LOVED your writer's room bit!
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LOVED your writer's room bit!
I'm glad! I needed some crack-silliness after thinking much too hard about all the things that have been niggling at me about this season that somehow manifested as GRRRR 4x11.
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:)
smishes you back!
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Heh. My "just warning you" was more like a "warning: I'm going to probably pollute your journal with my blabber, sorry" instead of a "warning: I'm going to be overly critical or hunt you down (or something)".
Rose-colored glasses are good. I want to find mine and wear them every Thursday night. 8D
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Although you missed the part where Carver makes comments about pregnant women for some weird reason. But Gamble was spot-on. ;)
As for the episode, bleh, I'm half-afraid of what I'd write but I might start getting meta-y and grouchy tomorrow.
The one thing I have to add though is that the girl and the boy are in fact twins, there was at least one referencee of "OUT OF NOWHERE THE TWIN!!" in the sides. And they were supposedly going to be albino too.
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*dies laughing* Oh, how could I have forgotten that!??! Apparently, he got his pregnant woman fix in 4x11 by creating in incestuous pregnancy with two children turned savage by their abusive father/grandfather. For a moment, I thought the fotw's (family of the week) last name was "Carver" instead of "Carter" and thought he was a LITTLE CRAZY to lend his surname to the victim family. Thankfully that wasn't the case, otherwise I'd have to wonder about him, esp. with the whole pregnancy fixation thing. O_o
I might start getting meta-y and grouchy tomorrow.
I certainly didn't set out to write what I ended up writing. But I know what you're saying. I've stopped writing meta and haven't been doing episode reactions of any substance for a long time because I don't want to be a wet blanket. Obviously, this time around I lost my filter and posted this before I pressed delete.
there was at least one referencee of "OUT OF NOWHERE THE TWIN!!" in the sides. And they were ( ... )
Reply
Perhaps we are looking at the episode the wrong way then and instead of trying to compare it to the Winchester's freaky life, Family Remains was the horrifying look into the dysfunctional life of a writer gone insane. Insane with trying to please Eric Kripke and his obsession with gore and fryers!
You're still doing better than I am I think. I get around to writing some notes on a piece of paper, going "sfblubbefs" and shutting the paper away in a book only to find it about three weeks later when I completely forget what the point was. That might classify me as a torn-up couch cover or something, I'm not sure.
Obviously the albino thing didn't translate, so I have to wonder if the twin thing didn't translate eitherI'm not 100% about the albino, it may have simply come from the fact that they were disfigured or that they avoided the light. I'm still trying to google around and find them again ( ... )
Reply
*sporfle* I think also Kripke might be a little obsessed with Dean. ;) Because according to him "Dean is a HERO!" (do you remember that interview?) Which he is, of course, but maybe not the ONLY hero on the Show.
I get around to writing some notes on a piece of paper, going "sfblubbefs" and shutting the paper away in a book only to find it about three weeks later when I completely forget what the point was.
Aww, *pets*. My hard drive is full of aborted meta. It is scary.
you'd think her diary would have noted having a second child with the first one.
Unless that diary only documented the first born and not the second.
Unless she was unconscious during labor which still makes no sense.
Unless she was abducted by aliens and impregnated and gave birth in a time warp whereby she lost no time on Earth and her memory was wiped clean upon her instantaneous "return".
None ( ... )
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Still, it would have been much more awesome.
I though the ending was a bit tacked on, yeah, since it's basically the exact conversation they had last ep. If they'd let it all be revealed in this episode it would have had a much stronger impact. It did tie in to what hell does to a person nicely though, how you can turn into a rabid animal under the right circumstances.
I think I'm gonna have to make me a "time for The Talk again" icon.
Reply
Yes. I also think it was done intentionally for the exact same reasons. I just tend to think drama is made by breaking your characters and then redeeming them. There's nothing more satisfying than seeing fictional characters being put through the ringer and then come out the other side stronger, better, and with more insight. The payoff/growth is proportional to how low they went. And I like it when stories aren't afraid to go there--you can't redeem a character who never did anything wrong.
Part of me is glad Dean didn't kill the girl, but part of me is disappointed that Show didn't have the guts to do the almost unthinkable. At least it would've been a surprise and earned some respect/admiration for having the guts to really dig deep into Dean's character and take him to a place I thought was untouchable. But this is SPN, not BSG.
I added a paragraph to this post about this last night in case you're interested. :)
It did ( ... )
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If this episode had come earlier in the season, maybe. As is they've been wallowing in depressed and emo doom and gloom for a good long time now. It's the middle of the season, time to start solving some issues, not bundle a bunch of new ones on top.
I felt cheap for me too, but logically it was the right choice to make.
As for BSG, that show has a lot more characters to go around, so no matter how dark they take certain characters, they always have others they can focus on from time to time and have lighter moments.
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Exactly. PACING. I wrote about this exact thing in my first reply to you but I deleted that part because it got long and I felt it sounded ranty. But, yes ... *high fives you*! Dean's Hell revelations should've happened sooner. Maybe Kripke and Co. needed Dean to repress a little so they could get the mytharc plot underway and introduced angels and new!Ruby and such, but that doesn't mean they needed to leave Dean's reveals until mid-season. Maybe a re-tooled version of "YF" (4x06) might've been the time to pull back Dean's Hell curtain so we could be further down the trail by now. What's going on with Lilith? How many seals have been broken? Have more angels died? Where's slashed up Ruby now? What happened to Sam and Dean's whole argument about Sam not using his powers because God didn't want him to--was there a resolution to that? What's up with Sam's powers not affecting a WED ... aren't ( ... )
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I will never be able to think of those dolls again without silently freaking out. D: Have you ever seen any of the "Child's Play" movies with Chucky the murderous doll? Oh, man, I had nightmares for YEARS! Chucky did for me what Jaws did for me for swimming.
Call it Hell-Stockholm Syndrome. I mean, it was years, not months.
*nods* I'm OK with Dean having "enjoyed torturing other people". What I mean to say is: I'm OK with the choice the writers made to have him done that and enjoyed it. I like the idea of him questioning the ONE thing he's been sure of all these years: his belief that he's "THE GOOD GUY". I'm all for shaking up the foundation a little and seeing what happens.
the twin thing would've been brilliant but might have seemed slightly ... not cliche but sort of been-there-done-that in a way.Yeah, I can see that. I thought the same thing, too, and have no real answer to that other than I think identical twins in this episode would've been a better place ( ... )
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