Fascinating theory, very thoroughly laid out. (Sometimes the show doesn't extrapolate the ramifications half so well as you just did...)
I am also conflicted, I don't want Bobby to be dead, but I don't want a revival that cheapens the emotion of the last episode. Your take on him appearing as 'signs' is perfect.
Seriously, SPN fans have produced some damn fine scholarly articles like this one!
I really like and appreciate the theory you posit here. And fully agree that you present a credible theory for how Ghost!Bobby could be a very real possibility.
I do think he is dead and put so much energy into getting those numbers to Sam and Dean pre-death because he expected that to be his final communication with them -- which is a large part of what makes me think the idea of him actually lingering as a ghost is a longshot possibility. However, you appear to allude to the possibility of Bobby hanging around as a spirit for a certain period of time -- for Sam and Dean... and then it's an open end for a possible change in choice for Bobby. Now that too is an interesting and viable possibility.
Playing Devil's Advocate for one tiny second, I argue against my own fondness for Bobby when I look at two moments of SPN's history concerning references to spirits and their afterlife:
Tessa: Look at her, Cole. Do you see how unhappy she is
( ... )
Please don't apologize for having commented at length; I enjoy a conversation, at least on the (now admittedly rare!) occasions when I can converse back!
About your point: "... the idea that Bobby hanging around, intending it to be a comfort and help -- actually exacerbating the pain... that is a rather disturbing thought to me. Haven't the Winchesters experienced enough pain and loss? Bobby lingering as a ghost presents quite the conundrum: would it comfort or hurt the boys if he were to not move on but rather anchor himself somehow to them? Best of intentions, road to... well. We've been there before, haven't we?"I'm definitely betting that if Bobby remained around as a spirit, it wouldn't be all cookies and puppydogs; the writers would manage to turn the knife somehow! But I think the situation is different than the one between Cole and his mother, precisely because Bobby and the brothers understand life and death very differently than any other mortals. They're unique in having gotten a glimpse behind the curtain. Cole's mom,
( ... )
Oh, i love this! I love your breakdown of ghosts of episodes past, what motivated/held them, what banished them, what they could do. Just - amazing!
And your speculation - it's so spot on. So many reasons for Bobby to stay! But...as blackcat333_99 says...it could backfire.
In my heart of hearts, Bobby is dead. He knows better than to try to stay, to make Dean suffer over his ghost, to try to linger when the possibility of becoming something bad/monstrous is too high.
I will grieve for him, but i can't convince myself that him coming back to Show would be handled with the delicacy it would need. I don't want his epic struggle and death to be just shunted aside.
(Unless we get a whole-universe reboot and start all over again in the nursery with Mary blowing the YED away and nobody dying ever....) *cough*
Anyway...yes. Loved this, am going to bookmark and save for future perusal/reference.
I don't really think we'll have ghost-Bobby, but then again ... What can I say? I'm conflicted! I love Bobby and want to keep him as much as the Winchesters do, but I wouldn't ever want to cause him or them more pain than they already have. Aaarrgh! Rock, meet hard place ...
Do you have an interpretation for the way the show deliberately and progressively blanked out Bobby's experience of the world on his way to a final memory? I (pessimistically) read it as qualitatively different from Dean's experience in 2.01 In My Time of Dying. We've had canon explanations that becoming an angry spirit (or demon!) is due to forgetting who you are. If some part of Bobby does stick around, maybe that will be one of his issues sooner rather than later?
I do have my own explanation, and it's not as pessimistic as yours. :) The way I see it, Dean's and Bobby's dying experiences were very different in large part because Dean's spirit was already roaming outside his body, only loosely tethered to his physical being, while Bobby's was still firmly in physical residence and thus experiencing as a physical thing his body and mind shutting down from the inside. Dean couldn't figure out how to get back into his body, while Bobby, still connected, was resisting being evicted, and was taking refuge inside his own memories to evade the Reaper.
I don't think the bodily loss of access to his memories as his physical brain shut down - the process we were seeing as he lost places to hide from the Reaper and saw the world outside going dark - would have had any effect on Bobby's soul or spirit. Yes, our current understanding of thought and memory is built around electrical impulses traveling through our physical brains, but Supernatural's cosmology has
( ... )
Hmm; don't know that I've written specifically on memory and knowledge, although I do know concepts have come up in certain episodes and I've played with them there at least in brief. Big problem is, I've written so much over the years that it's hard even for me to track one thread, particularly since so many of my meta pieces got wrapped up into my episode reviews. Oopsie! If you'd like to check for specifics on an episode, I've got a master list of links to all my reviews pinned near the top of my journal, and I've also got a master list of my freestanding meta. And I'm unfortunately typing this on the new iPad I haven't fully figured out how to use, so I can't stick in the links right here. Sorry!
You're bang-on in pegging Dean as the burying champion and Sam as the champion digger, though!
Bobby, however, many times said that he was tired, old, done, whatever. It could be that he was serious about that. He gave the boys the information they needed with the Leviathans, and he might just consider his job finally done. I'm not sure which it's going to be. I'm just willing to let the show surprise me either way.
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I am also conflicted, I don't want Bobby to be dead, but I don't want a revival that cheapens the emotion of the last episode. Your take on him appearing as 'signs' is perfect.
Seriously, SPN fans have produced some damn fine scholarly articles like this one!
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I do think he is dead and put so much energy into getting those numbers to Sam and Dean pre-death because he expected that to be his final communication with them -- which is a large part of what makes me think the idea of him actually lingering as a ghost is a longshot possibility. However, you appear to allude to the possibility of Bobby hanging around as a spirit for a certain period of time -- for Sam and Dean... and then it's an open end for a possible change in choice for Bobby. Now that too is an interesting and viable possibility.
Playing Devil's Advocate for one tiny second, I argue against my own fondness for Bobby when I look at two moments of SPN's history concerning references to spirits and their afterlife:
Tessa: Look at her, Cole. Do you see how unhappy she is ( ... )
Reply
About your point: "... the idea that Bobby hanging around, intending it to be a comfort and help -- actually exacerbating the pain... that is a rather disturbing thought to me. Haven't the Winchesters experienced enough pain and loss? Bobby lingering as a ghost presents quite the conundrum: would it comfort or hurt the boys if he were to not move on but rather anchor himself somehow to them? Best of intentions, road to... well. We've been there before, haven't we?"I'm definitely betting that if Bobby remained around as a spirit, it wouldn't be all cookies and puppydogs; the writers would manage to turn the knife somehow! But I think the situation is different than the one between Cole and his mother, precisely because Bobby and the brothers understand life and death very differently than any other mortals. They're unique in having gotten a glimpse behind the curtain. Cole's mom, ( ... )
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And your speculation - it's so spot on. So many reasons for Bobby to stay! But...as blackcat333_99 says...it could backfire.
In my heart of hearts, Bobby is dead. He knows better than to try to stay, to make Dean suffer over his ghost, to try to linger when the possibility of becoming something bad/monstrous is too high.
I will grieve for him, but i can't convince myself that him coming back to Show would be handled with the delicacy it would need. I don't want his epic struggle and death to be just shunted aside.
(Unless we get a whole-universe reboot and start all over again in the nursery with Mary blowing the YED away and nobody dying ever....)
*cough*
Anyway...yes. Loved this, am going to bookmark and save for future perusal/reference.
Reply
I don't really think we'll have ghost-Bobby, but then again ... What can I say? I'm conflicted! I love Bobby and want to keep him as much as the Winchesters do, but I wouldn't ever want to cause him or them more pain than they already have. Aaarrgh! Rock, meet hard place ...
Thanks for stopping by!
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Oh, Show - you'll be the death of me.
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Do you have an interpretation for the way the show deliberately and progressively blanked out Bobby's experience of the world on his way to a final memory? I (pessimistically) read it as qualitatively different from Dean's experience in 2.01 In My Time of Dying. We've had canon explanations that becoming an angry spirit (or demon!) is due to forgetting who you are. If some part of Bobby does stick around, maybe that will be one of his issues sooner rather than later?
Reply
I do have my own explanation, and it's not as pessimistic as yours. :) The way I see it, Dean's and Bobby's dying experiences were very different in large part because Dean's spirit was already roaming outside his body, only loosely tethered to his physical being, while Bobby's was still firmly in physical residence and thus experiencing as a physical thing his body and mind shutting down from the inside. Dean couldn't figure out how to get back into his body, while Bobby, still connected, was resisting being evicted, and was taking refuge inside his own memories to evade the Reaper.
I don't think the bodily loss of access to his memories as his physical brain shut down - the process we were seeing as he lost places to hide from the Reaper and saw the world outside going dark - would have had any effect on Bobby's soul or spirit. Yes, our current understanding of thought and memory is built around electrical impulses traveling through our physical brains, but Supernatural's cosmology has ( ... )
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You're bang-on in pegging Dean as the burying champion and Sam as the champion digger, though!
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I just ... love Bobby and Jim Beaver, and hate to contemplate saying goodbye fully as much as Sam and Dean. :)
Thanks for coming by!
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