Further thoughts on 11.02 (Sam meta)

[ash48]

The reason I love discussing the show is that it helps me get to grips with something I might have missed or not understood

Comments

[galwithglasses]

Very cool thoughts. I think you and percysowner are on to something here. I'm not even really sure the idea of being sent to The Empty is such a horrifying thought for Sam. He doesn't want that for Dean though, I don't think. I'm glad you found something to get excited about.

[ash48]

Hee - I remember getting excited during S9 that they were heading somewhere with all this and it never happened. I would love to think this is somewhat connected. I do think the idea of them going to "the empty" is yet to be explored - but maybe it's about making their death more threatening or something. The problem is, we know they can't die so the threat is never that, er, threatening. I think it will be how they respond to that. Sam knowing that he can't be brought back might give him some level of peace. And maybe even Dean (if Dean faced). But yes, it's not something they will want for each other so maybe there will be even more at stake for keeping each other alive. Hee, and we'll be back where we started…:)

I would have thought the "empty" would be a damn sight better than either heaven or hell (knowing what we know about those places). And I suppose if they're together it might not be such a bad option.

Why do I have a feeling the "empty" is where the darkness will end up. Hmmm

[fanspired]

Sometimes I think the history of the past three seasons has been the show bottling out of telling this very story - because every time they attempted it, fans got angry.

What if the empty is simply a threatening sounding name for oblivion? I think Sam would settle for that quite cheerfully. Mind you, as soon as 'get me a young Gina Torres' said it I couldn't help hearing "take me out to the Black, tell 'em I aint coming back" playing in my head :P

[caranfindel]

The Empty sounded threatening to me because I pictured it not as oblivion, but emptiness. That you would still be aware, but you'd be floating in a void. Obviously this is a huge assumption on my part, but it don't know what else would make it so threatening to Sam. (Other than not being able to rescue Dean from it.)

[milly_gal]

The fact that it *still* makes with the thinky thoughts after this amount of time - impressive!

Sam as far as I can see is completely okay with his mortality, not because he thinks Dean would be better off without him, but because he's come to the realisation that when they both buck the natural order, others they love and some they don't even know, get screwed in the deal. He was willing to fight to stay alive, find a cure, but he didn't want Dean's instinct to preserve his life to kick in and drop everything to come save him.

My two penneth anyways :)

[ash48]

The fact that it *still* makes with the thinky thoughts after this amount of time - impressive!

It is pretty damn impressive!

And yes! to everything you say here. I didn't pick that up when I was watching it, but it how I can see it now. And I like it! :)

[milly_gal]

I like the fact that Sam's come to some kind of peace with how he conducts himself. He isn't being, as far as I can tell 'suicidal or selfless' he's being the man he always wanted to be; thinking it through, trying to change the bits he knows make him and his brother a target. I like this year's Sam, I liked last year's Sam too.

[ash48]

I like their approach with him too so far. And last season. I'm sure I would have liked S9 too if they had given us a chance to understand what was going on in his head. I'm hoping it continues. :)

[manzanita_crow]

I really hope the writers actually meant this. That might be giving them too much credit though

[ash48]

*nods* that's always the problem when trying to make sense of stuff. But I've decided that even if it's not what they meant, I'll believe these reasons for Sam doing what he did. Though, I also believe it's possibly there to create further riffs between the brothers. But I seriously hope not.

[manzanita_crow]

Quite right. I deny their reality and substitute my own :D

[caranfindel]

Huh. That's actually a very good point. Though, like manzanita_crow, I wonder if it's giving the writers too much credit.

[ash48]

Possibly. :) Though maybe it doesn't matter what they meant, but rather the interpretation (though I prefer to think it's what they meant). *g* I think the next few eps will make that clearer - maybe.

[amypond45]

I love this! Not that I don't want them always willing to give everything to save each other, because that's what makes them so compelling. But the idea that Sam consciously chooses to fight for his own life here (and I agree, he doesn't want to die) is very compelling. It also makes me wonder if there were other times that Sam doesn't tell Dean what he's been through (that year between Season 7 & 8? the six months after Dean finally dies for good in Mystery Spot?) because those are struggles he owns for himself, not more guilt he wants to pile on to his brother. Very good thoughts and SO worthy of discussion and debate! Never stop the discussion!

[ash48]

Oh yes. I like those ideas too. I think Sam is very conscious of burdening his brother (like he said in 7.02). He really doesn't want that - and I think some of the reason for not telling Dean is tied up in that. I imagine Sam won't voluntarily tell Dean what happened (it was hinted that Crowley knew, but kept cutting Dean off) because he knows how cross Dean will be. I think Sam might just want Dean to recognise the good he did and express some pride in him, but unless Dean has changed he will call Sam out on it. But as I mentioned above, I'm hoping this will be a catalyst for opening this theme again and really going somewhere with it.