Comments | ash48: a few things...

ash48

a few things...

Jun 15, 2014 22:00

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Comments 18

yourlibrarian June 16 2014, 20:42:02 UTC

Personally I think this has more to do with how Kripke originally conceived of the characters. Don't forget that his planned ending for the series in S5 was to have Dean let Sam go to hell to keep Lucifer trapped. I think Dean was always supposed to have mixed feelings about having the family together versus having people do what they needed to. (After all, John never gave him any choice about that -- it was always about what John thought needed to be done). So I think that it's more a matter of the writers not coming up with better ways of dealing with the characters that has him making choices like at the end of last season or the start of this one.

ash48 June 16 2014, 22:58:18 UTC

Yeah, I know the characters have changed since Kripke's day. I would like to think there are character reasons etc etc but it all has to do with the story telling. Sam had loooong reconciled having a "normal" life, but the beginning of S8 was all about him wanting a normal life. Dean has been able to let Sam go when he needed to, but this season has been about him not being able to let Sam go. Carver seems to be re-using these past character themes

I remember at the time saying that I sincerely hope that the way S5 ended was not how Kripke imagined the series would. That was be so very depressing. I think I read somewhere that the plan was for both of them to jump into the pit. I could live with that much more than thinking one had to live without the other (knowing that the other one was suffering in hell). One dying and at peace would also be way more acceptable.

casey28 June 18 2014, 03:25:45 UTC

It's different from what he said in 1.11, because he's proud of "us". He's including himself in this, so it's not like he was letting go of Sam. Dean's journey isn't about him "getting back to the character he was in 1.11."

That's not to say I want to see them separate, but maybe being able to separate might be a step forward

I'm curious why you think that this is a step forward.

Oh, and I also like the SPN Day of Fandom Love... and I agree, it's the way that things are said.

ash48 June 18 2014, 10:04:13 UTC

I'm curious why you think that this is a step forward.

Because, unlike a lot of fandom, I don't consider their co-dependence very healthy. It's lead to some pretty awful behaviours by them both (to each other), so learning to let go seems to be a step forward as far as I am concerned. We've argued heaps about this and I know we differ very much on this aspect of their relationship. That's not to say I want them to be any less co-dependent, but there was a time when Dean was able to let go of Sam. He's lost that ability over the years and it's helped continue the Winchester cycle of sacrifice. Which is awesome for the show (and yay can't live without each other!) but I want to see Dean treating Sam like an equal again - being proud of him for what he's done and endured. Which I think the "I'm proud of us" was leaning toward. But I would loved it to have been "I'm proud of you for sticking with me when you could have easily walked away" (of course, Sam would never do that - but that was never addressed either). I have struggled ( ... )

casey28 June 28 2014, 16:13:59 UTC

I really don't think I have the energy to argue/discuss all this over again. ;/ I know we'll never see eye to eye on this.

Sorry that I'm late replying to this, hon. It sounded like you didn't want to talk to me about this, so I thought it was best to let it go. But now I've seen your latest post, and you're saying that you do want to discuss this topic. I'm not sure if this means that you'd like to discuss this with me again, or not. I was going to reply to your other post, and to your comment here, but I don't know if you want me to.

ash48 June 28 2014, 23:42:11 UTC

I'm sorry to give mixed messages. I suppose I mean I feel that we have had some very long and excellent discussions on the topic and I feel going over it again won't change anything. As you can see from my latest post I am still struggling with it all and to be honest I don't know what I'm looking for as an answer. I accept your version of the situation, but unfortunately that doesn't make me feel any better about Dean. I wish it did, because I think embracing that would help me I'm sure. But I can't. In all honesty I think I just have to move on (which I have been trying to do and failing miserably at!).
xx