The audience holding a (female) protagonist to idiotic standards is a quite common thing - the need for "larger than life" heroes, ultimate solutions, black-and-white thinking on top of different standards for male and female protagonists all play into this. I'm quite tired of discussing with people who lack the education to step back for a moment and discuss the story from the outside, including all the societal baggage writers and readers bring to a given work of culture.
But there is also a secondary set of critics, who feel out of touch with the character of Buffy due to the comic season:
Season 8 has a lot of shortcomings in shwoing us why the character(s) arrive(s) at a certain point and commit(s) to a certain action.
Add in the convoluted (and in parts quite esoteric) plot and readers are confused and frustrated. This frustration has to go somewhere and as 4th wall breaking seems too much for large parts of the audience they lash out on characters
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The audience holding a (female) protagonist to idiotic standards is a quite common thing - the need for "larger than life" heroes, ultimate solutions, black-and-white thinking on top of different standards for male and female protagonists all play into thisIndeed. Though honestly, I don't think one can easily say who's immune to the attitude. I've seen some very well-educated folk do the woman-blaming thing, especially when it comes to Buffy
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I don't think one can easily say who's immune to the attitude.
Very true. We are all part of the society which shapes and drives these standards - to say that we're immune would be telling. ;-) But we're able to step back and acknowledge these (our) shortcomings and discuss them as we discuss the story (just the same way we discuss the story as well as at the same time) and thus come to a clearer understanding (not only of the story/characters but also ourselves).
With the comics it's complicated.
Hehe! :D (Also very true.)
On the one hand, the mode of storytelling leaves you to fill in the blanks. And this is probably the gist of it. TV Buffy had it's fair share of "reader's response" interwoven into it's storytelling - but the comics brought this to a whole new level: The audience gets snippets of story/information/characterization and is left to fill out huge blanks for themselves. While this is all well and fine when trying to appease a large audience with differing preferences, giving each and everyone "the story i want
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I hear you. I think the weakness with Season 8 was Dollhouse's weakness, too, actually: ambition. It's like Whedon keeps trying to push the envelope. And that's obviously a strength, but it can also be a huge weakness. With Dollhouse, they pushed too much and they never quite grasped the show's identity. With Season 8, he pushed too much, went wild with the new freedom provided by the medium, and lost hold of the story's identity too. He said he'd initially been writing an intimate soap opera for Season 8, then decided to go epic. I wonder though if he doesn't realize it's the intimacy that made the moments epic. Buffy killing Angel wasn't epic because she did it to save the world, but because she loved him. The intimacy is what made the moments epic, where as they might have seemed over-the-top ridiculous otherwise. That's the balance lost here. The over-the-top ridiculous and epic plot edging out the intimate nature of the comics
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People (other characters and fans) work to convince men that they are good enough despite their flaws. Or that they can overcome their flaws. Or fix their flaws. With women--it's the exact opposite. Their flaws are used as evidence to prove that they AREN'T good enough. That they don't deserve praise or love or esteem.
And that's the very reason i get the urge to throw up when thinking of Buffy and Xander in a serious romantic relationship. ;-)
Definitely. She's flawed and, what's more, incredibly complicated. That's a part of what made the show great.
also think part of what makes her a hero is that she doesn't consider it exceptional that she is this sort of person who risks her life for others; to her it's her duty and to ignore the rest of the world and just take of herself (like any average person) is unthinkable.
I have a couple of little questions/comments before I get to the "you are SO right!" part of this comment.
First, where in S7 does she "give into despair and reckless behavior"? I see her as powering determinedly all the way through, with just a couple of breathers taken toward the end.
to be dating the Slayer ... you have to have your own head on straight. Buffy's the one who needs serious unconditional emotional support (one reason Season 7 Spike or Season 7/8 Xander is good for her)Characterizing S7 Spike as someone who has his head on straight seems odd when he spends 1/3 of the season as full-on "bug-shagging crazy". There are too many S7 Spikes! (Also I will never think that Xander is good for her in a "dating" way. *shudder
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Well, for Season 7 I see her plan to just repeat her assault on the vineyard as reckless. She doesn't actually formulate a plan so much as determine they're going back in, same as before. And clearly that didn't work the first time.
Hmm. But he says Buffy possesses "kindness" and I think being "tough but fair" is a measure of kindness, isn't it? Also, Buffy's capacity for forgiveness, the way she protects others, the way she brings Spike into the fold and fights to keep him safe.
I disagree that she makes a lot of "wrong bloody calls"*, and can only point to a handful of places where she can reasonably be expected to have done better.
Haha, well that seemed like a nifty quote to grab. Her judgment isn't always perfect and that seemed like a good way to capture it.
(I think part of the wrong calls for me includes Season 8, so no doubt that's where we diverge. ;))
I see "kindness" as one possible delivery method for the caring that women do. Some women care by being HBIC, and that's fine. Some care by being Big Damn Heroes, and that's fine, too. Some care by taking people out for milkshakes and speaking softly, and that's fine, but it ain't Buffy. So, no, I don't think she's kind, but I do think she's caring. Does that make sense?
I think we have different definitions of kindness. I'm not quite clear how you're defining it. For me a kind deed is something done for another's well-being. I think caring for Spike in Season 7 is one example of kindness (like when she cleans his forehead with a damp towel). Another would be her sitting with Willow on the bed and helping Willow heal, "I've got so much strength I'm giving it away."
Here's how I define it: treating someone kindly, being sensitive to their feelings, caring for them, the nature attached to doing someone a favor (kindness as defined as a favor or a deed done for another: "You've done me an kindness.").
I think maybe you have a stricter definition? I'm not sure. :)
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I'm quite tired of discussing with people who lack the education to step back for a moment and discuss the story from the outside, including all the societal baggage writers and readers bring to a given work of culture.
But there is also a secondary set of critics, who feel out of touch with the character of Buffy due to the comic season:
Season 8 has a lot of shortcomings in shwoing us why the character(s) arrive(s) at a certain point and commit(s) to a certain action.
Add in the convoluted (and in parts quite esoteric) plot and readers are confused and frustrated. This frustration has to go somewhere and as 4th wall breaking seems too much for large parts of the audience they lash out on characters ( ... )
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Very true. We are all part of the society which shapes and drives these standards - to say that we're immune would be telling. ;-) But we're able to step back and acknowledge these (our) shortcomings and discuss them as we discuss the story (just the same way we discuss the story as well as at the same time) and thus come to a clearer understanding (not only of the story/characters but also ourselves).
With the comics it's complicated.
Hehe! :D (Also very true.)
On the one hand, the mode of storytelling leaves you to fill in the blanks. And this is probably the gist of it. TV Buffy had it's fair share of "reader's response" interwoven into it's storytelling - but the comics brought this to a whole new level: The audience gets snippets of story/information/characterization and is left to fill out huge blanks for themselves. While this is all well and fine when trying to appease a large audience with differing preferences, giving each and everyone "the story i want ( ... )
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And that's the very reason i get the urge to throw up when thinking of Buffy and Xander in a serious romantic relationship. ;-)
(Sorry for the tangent.)
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also think part of what makes her a hero is that she doesn't consider it exceptional that she is this sort of person who risks her life for others; to her it's her duty and to ignore the rest of the world and just take of herself (like any average person) is unthinkable.
YES. Well said.
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First, where in S7 does she "give into despair and reckless behavior"? I see her as powering determinedly all the way through, with just a couple of breathers taken toward the end.
to be dating the Slayer ... you have to have your own head on straight. Buffy's the one who needs serious unconditional emotional support (one reason Season 7 Spike or Season 7/8 Xander is good for her)Characterizing S7 Spike as someone who has his head on straight seems odd when he spends 1/3 of the season as full-on "bug-shagging crazy". There are too many S7 Spikes! (Also I will never think that Xander is good for her in a "dating" way. *shudder ( ... )
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Hmm. But he says Buffy possesses "kindness" and I think being "tough but fair" is a measure of kindness, isn't it? Also, Buffy's capacity for forgiveness, the way she protects others, the way she brings Spike into the fold and fights to keep him safe.
I disagree that she makes a lot of "wrong bloody calls"*, and can only point to a handful of places where she can reasonably be expected to have done better.
Haha, well that seemed like a nifty quote to grab. Her judgment isn't always perfect and that seemed like a good way to capture it.
(I think part of the wrong calls for me includes Season 8, so no doubt that's where we diverge. ;))
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Here's how I define it: treating someone kindly, being sensitive to their feelings, caring for them, the nature attached to doing someone a favor (kindness as defined as a favor or a deed done for another: "You've done me an kindness.").
I think maybe you have a stricter definition? I'm not sure. :)
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