You're a little more generous to Riley than I am--I tend to think Buffy was completely justified in not noticing his issues--mainly because of her mom being sick. But also because he was hiding them. It seems to me like one of those points where each person in the relationship needed to be able to draw into themselves and to receive unflinching support from their partner. Unfortunately, both people can't really do that at the same time. So, in general, I just think of them as ill-fated. Bad timing perhaps. Or maybe just incompatible.
But it irritates me to no end when I see Buffy blamed for that relationship's demise. The more times I watch those episodes, and the more thought I commit to it, the more convinced I am that we're supposed to see exactly how Riley's skewed view of the relationship ultimately works to erode Buffy's confidence in herself as human. As tender and loving. As a woman. She accepts his version of the truth--in part because she does feel the need to close herself off--so it probably makes sense to her. But she hadn't really closed Riley out. Not really.
And--yep. It's really frustrating to see Buffy get censured for being imperfect, when lots and lots of men are imperfect--and their imperfections are recognized, accepted, and filed away. They aren't persecuted for them. People (other characters and fans) work to convince men that they are good enough despite their flaws. Or that they can overcome their flaws. Or fix their flaws. With women--it's the exact opposite. Their flaws are used as evidence to prove that they AREN'T good enough. That they don't deserve praise or love or esteem.
People (other characters and fans) work to convince men that they are good enough despite their flaws. Or that they can overcome their flaws. Or fix their flaws. With women--it's the exact opposite. Their flaws are used as evidence to prove that they AREN'T good enough. That they don't deserve praise or love or esteem.
And that's the very reason i get the urge to throw up when thinking of Buffy and Xander in a serious romantic relationship. ;-)
You know, pouting and extra cute icons are emotional blackmail. ;-)
Ok, so it's more complicated than this.
For me, Xander and Buffy as good friends penetrates a certain trope i hate with a passion: That men and women can never be "just friends". That's what i like about the Buffy and Xander relationship, that they're "just friends" (which really means they're very close, love each other and give their life or their eye for the other!), thus breaking the cliche of "men and women can only be together sexually".
The second thing is: Xander is a nerd. I don't mean that in a dismissive way - he just is. And he has nerd-strengths and nerd-shortcomings. And i've watched way too many cheap slapsticks with the nerd getting the superwoman (plain text of those "comedies": Men are allowed to be nerds full of flaws and obnoxious behaviour while women have to be super to be worthy). Which i also hate with a passion: If You (me) want the supergirl - better be super yourself! So, my reason for not liking those two together romantically has more to do with meta-reasons of contemporary pop culture than the inner workings of the two fictional characters "Buffy" and "Xander".
(And i know i was being very rude in my choice of words but i'm still reeling from all the stuff thrown around on BF - the mind boggles at the close mindedness of human beings with a college education.)
So - there You have it. It is all just in my head. ;-)
I actually think You did wonderful in Your fic "Strangers" (which i still have to finish) considering Buffy and Xander.
And yes, agree with You on the "girl must accept former bad boy as a boyfriend" - that's just awful.
But then, the trope You mention is not the one i saw on the show: Spike doesn't change for the "love of a good woman" (although half of fandom thinks this) - he changed because he couldn't reconcile the image of himself with the reality of himself. The AR scene was some kind of "mirror" for him (interesting thing here: vampires cannot see themselves in the mirror - which means the cannot reflect on themselves, evolve by self-reflection. Which also means they can have an image of themselves totally different than the one the world around them has of them).
And i think that's great, this subversion of the all too common trope (the one You mention). Spike changes because of himself, not because of Buffy. For me, that makes their story ugly and beautiful and messy and interesting (as opposed to boring "done that to death").
Buffy doesn't love him (the bad boy - she comes to love the "good man" he can be) and he changes to reconcile his image with his reality. Much truer than any bullshit cliché of the bad boy changing for the girl.
(But fanon can muddle up canon, so there's that. No matter how complex a story - there will always be someone trying hard to simplify things. ;-))
But Spike does change for Buffy. He said it himself in Get It Done, the soul was for her.
See, i have a different reading here: Spike is getting defensive, since Buffy asks something of him he doesn't want to give (he doesn't want to be that killer anymore). So he throws the ball back to her, trying to put her on the defensive. This doesn't work and then he tries the opposite: threatening her with becoming exactly that (while we know that he doesn't mean it - see above).
It's wordgames.
But anyways, on to Your other points (as You so aptly point out - that's not Your point)! :-)
he generally starts being good
Not in my book. ;-) And i'm sure Spike would reject that, too. Sure, we get that scene where he says he can change - but ultimately, he doesn't. He's selfish, a jerk, he's not elevating himself for Buffy but trying to drag her down to his level. Sure, he changes the tune (he's always done that for the women he loves - appearing to change to please them, but deep down, he's Spike-former-William), but not the dance.
But i give You that "Intervention" and "The Gift" are extra-schmoopy and bordering cliché (and it is no wonder that these episodes started a huge Spuffy movement). Luckily, that's only two episodes. ;-)
What annoys me is that Buffy is expected to fall deeply in love with him because he does all these things for her.
I'm right there with You. But that's fandom, not the show. The show makes it very clear that that's NOT expected from Buffy - it is something she hides, fights, is unsure about and only admits when the show is really over (no follow up on her words possible). The show itself is ambigous about it. On top, i think Buffy really fell in love with Spike not because he changed for her (i'm sure that did some wonderful things for her self-esteem, though ;-)) but because of what he did once he had the soul (so not the soul-getting is the trigger but the possibility to save/help save/witness saving another "lost soul").
It is fun discussing this with You! Thanks again to Emmie for lending her space. :)
I don't want Spike to be Mr. Saint. What annoys me is that Buffy is expected to fall deeply in love with him because he does all these things for her. Spike before the soul expects her to love him because he's good. She doesn't have to. He starts to understand this in S7 after he got the soul.
I have so much love for this observation you can't begin to know. Although I also agree with norwie2010's reply below (and sorry, I know this is old stuff) "But that's fandom, not the show."
Buffy needs the time to sort out her feelings, and I think S7 gives her that, even as the other characters (the Scoobies, Giles, Angel and Spike himself) keep pushing her to put a name, a label, a definition on her feelings when she's not ready to - or tell her her feelings aren't real, or define it for her ('boyfriend" "Are you in love with him?" etc)
But it's in fandom - or maybe the pocket of it I've landed in - that castigates her over and over and over (esp in fic form) that she should do exactly the things you say - that she owes it to him to love him because he does a couple of selfless acts, or simply because he says "I love you/I'm in love with you". And that makes me all kinds of rage-y. I like Spike, love JM's performance, but you know what? I want him to be worthy of her, deserve her love, and I want her to do what she needs to do for herself. I want her to love him or be in love with him ONLY if that's what she wants for herself.
Watching the season, alone and unaware of general fan opinions (or rather the various factions of opinions) it never occured to me that she didn't care for him - her actions show it in so many ways - nor did it occur to me to question her declaration in Chosen. That doesn't mean she owes him a relationship, has to be with him, that she should be in love with him, and she's deficient as a woman if she isn't in love with him. And in love, really, is about hormones and passion and feelings that bring people together but don't become love if real work isn't done on all sides. What Buffy and Spike experience is bigger than "romance".
I'm repeating what you said far more eloquently, sorry about that.
I hate the idea that anyone *should* love anyone because they deserve it or whatever. God, I hate it. Nobody is obliged to love anyone. I hate it when people say that Buffy should love Xander, or should have loved Riley more, etc. And I hate it most of all when someone says she should love Spike. If that were the basis for their relationship, I would have never become a Spuffy shipper. I never ship characters because of what anyone "deserves", I ship because of actual feelings, chemistry, attraction, connection... that I see between characters. The moment someone says that Buffy never loved Spike but she should, I'm out, I get a major disconnect.
That's why the only way for Buffy to finally express her love for Spike was to have it at the time when he wasn't asking for that declaration or expecting it or even accepting it. And if they are ever to be together in the future, it can only happen if she pursues him after he's completely stopped pursuing her romantically (which he seems to have, for quite some time now) because he doesn't believe or hope it would happen.
The moment someone says that Buffy never loved Spike but she should, I'm out, I get a major disconnect.
I've been having some major disconnect lately as a new fan because of this; so conversations like this (knowing it's not just me) restore my faith.
I've never understood the notion that because he says "I love you/I'm in love with you" she MUST return the feelings - feelings are nothing without understanding, and without the work to build the relationship, otherwise they evaporate into the familiar "I'm not in love with you anymore". And just because he says it, does he even understand what that means? That's a huge part of Spike's arc in S7: unselfish love, accepting Buffy for all her faults and strengths (his speech in Touched is actually pretty damn magnificent), learning what love actually means, loving not just who he wants to but applying it more universally. In a sense (and I'm only talking about BtVS here through S7) he loves the way she does when he sacrifices himself - loves not only the girl but the whole world enough to protect it and die for it.
it can only happen if she pursues him after he's completely stopped pursuing her romantically (which he seems to have, for quite some time now) because he doesn't believe or hope it would happen.
Exactly. He may "love" his "girlfriends"/lovers but it's with the condition that he in essence owns them in some way, and honoring their choices and agency really isn't in the picture. (Kidnapping Dru, abusing Harmony - who he is using for sex - telling Buffy "you belong in the dark with me." It's not all that different from the claims other men have put upon her: Angel's "you're my destiny"; Riley's "you're stupid if you don't go out with me" in Doomed, and then his insistence that she behave according to his needs in S5, etc. Even Giles' and Xander's judgements of her relationships with Angel and Spike ("why didn't you tell me" "It's none of your business" "Well it used to be." WTF?), are part of this pattern. And I don't say that to bash; it's part of what makes the characters interesting, and what they have to learn to transcend.
You're a little more generous to Riley than I am--I tend to think Buffy was completely justified in not noticing his issues--mainly because of her mom being sick. But also because he was hiding them. It seems to me like one of those points where each person in the relationship needed to be able to draw into themselves and to receive unflinching support from their partner. Unfortunately, both people can't really do that at the same time. So, in general, I just think of them as ill-fated. Bad timing perhaps. Or maybe just incompatible.
But it irritates me to no end when I see Buffy blamed for that relationship's demise. The more times I watch those episodes, and the more thought I commit to it, the more convinced I am that we're supposed to see exactly how Riley's skewed view of the relationship ultimately works to erode Buffy's confidence in herself as human. As tender and loving. As a woman. She accepts his version of the truth--in part because she does feel the need to close herself off--so it probably makes sense to her. But she hadn't really closed Riley out. Not really.
And--yep. It's really frustrating to see Buffy get censured for being imperfect, when lots and lots of men are imperfect--and their imperfections are recognized, accepted, and filed away. They aren't persecuted for them. People (other characters and fans) work to convince men that they are good enough despite their flaws. Or that they can overcome their flaws. Or fix their flaws. With women--it's the exact opposite. Their flaws are used as evidence to prove that they AREN'T good enough. That they don't deserve praise or love or esteem.
It's infuriating.
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And that's the very reason i get the urge to throw up when thinking of Buffy and Xander in a serious romantic relationship. ;-)
(Sorry for the tangent.)
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Ok, so it's more complicated than this.
For me, Xander and Buffy as good friends penetrates a certain trope i hate with a passion: That men and women can never be "just friends". That's what i like about the Buffy and Xander relationship, that they're "just friends" (which really means they're very close, love each other and give their life or their eye for the other!), thus breaking the cliche of "men and women can only be together sexually".
The second thing is: Xander is a nerd. I don't mean that in a dismissive way - he just is. And he has nerd-strengths and nerd-shortcomings. And i've watched way too many cheap slapsticks with the nerd getting the superwoman (plain text of those "comedies": Men are allowed to be nerds full of flaws and obnoxious behaviour while women have to be super to be worthy). Which i also hate with a passion: If You (me) want the supergirl - better be super yourself! So, my reason for not liking those two together romantically has more to do with meta-reasons of contemporary pop culture than the inner workings of the two fictional characters "Buffy" and "Xander".
(And i know i was being very rude in my choice of words but i'm still reeling from all the stuff thrown around on BF - the mind boggles at the close mindedness of human beings with a college education.)
So - there You have it. It is all just in my head. ;-)
(Btw.: cute icon is really cute. :-))
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And yes, agree with You on the "girl must accept former bad boy as a boyfriend" - that's just awful.
But then, the trope You mention is not the one i saw on the show: Spike doesn't change for the "love of a good woman" (although half of fandom thinks this) - he changed because he couldn't reconcile the image of himself with the reality of himself. The AR scene was some kind of "mirror" for him (interesting thing here: vampires cannot see themselves in the mirror - which means the cannot reflect on themselves, evolve by self-reflection. Which also means they can have an image of themselves totally different than the one the world around them has of them).
And i think that's great, this subversion of the all too common trope (the one You mention). Spike changes because of himself, not because of Buffy. For me, that makes their story ugly and beautiful and messy and interesting (as opposed to boring "done that to death").
Buffy doesn't love him (the bad boy - she comes to love the "good man" he can be) and he changes to reconcile his image with his reality. Much truer than any bullshit cliché of the bad boy changing for the girl.
(But fanon can muddle up canon, so there's that. No matter how complex a story - there will always be someone trying hard to simplify things. ;-))
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(The comment has been removed)
See, i have a different reading here: Spike is getting defensive, since Buffy asks something of him he doesn't want to give (he doesn't want to be that killer anymore). So he throws the ball back to her, trying to put her on the defensive. This doesn't work and then he tries the opposite: threatening her with becoming exactly that (while we know that he doesn't mean it - see above).
It's wordgames.
But anyways, on to Your other points (as You so aptly point out - that's not Your point)! :-)
he generally starts being good
Not in my book. ;-) And i'm sure Spike would reject that, too. Sure, we get that scene where he says he can change - but ultimately, he doesn't. He's selfish, a jerk, he's not elevating himself for Buffy but trying to drag her down to his level. Sure, he changes the tune (he's always done that for the women he loves - appearing to change to please them, but deep down, he's Spike-former-William), but not the dance.
But i give You that "Intervention" and "The Gift" are extra-schmoopy and bordering cliché (and it is no wonder that these episodes started a huge Spuffy movement). Luckily, that's only two episodes. ;-)
What annoys me is that Buffy is expected to fall deeply in love with him because he does all these things for her.
I'm right there with You.
But that's fandom, not the show. The show makes it very clear that that's NOT expected from Buffy - it is something she hides, fights, is unsure about and only admits when the show is really over (no follow up on her words possible). The show itself is ambigous about it. On top, i think Buffy really fell in love with Spike not because he changed for her (i'm sure that did some wonderful things for her self-esteem, though ;-)) but because of what he did once he had the soul (so not the soul-getting is the trigger but the possibility to save/help save/witness saving another "lost soul").
It is fun discussing this with You! Thanks again to Emmie for lending her space. :)
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PREACH.
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I have so much love for this observation you can't begin to know. Although I also agree with norwie2010's reply below (and sorry, I know this is old stuff) "But that's fandom, not the show."
Buffy needs the time to sort out her feelings, and I think S7 gives her that, even as the other characters (the Scoobies, Giles, Angel and Spike himself) keep pushing her to put a name, a label, a definition on her feelings when she's not ready to - or tell her her feelings aren't real, or define it for her ('boyfriend" "Are you in love with him?" etc)
But it's in fandom - or maybe the pocket of it I've landed in - that castigates her over and over and over (esp in fic form) that she should do exactly the things you say - that she owes it to him to love him because he does a couple of selfless acts, or simply because he says "I love you/I'm in love with you". And that makes me all kinds of rage-y. I like Spike, love JM's performance, but you know what? I want him to be worthy of her, deserve her love, and I want her to do what she needs to do for herself. I want her to love him or be in love with him ONLY if that's what she wants for herself.
Watching the season, alone and unaware of general fan opinions (or rather the various factions of opinions) it never occured to me that she didn't care for him - her actions show it in so many ways - nor did it occur to me to question her declaration in Chosen. That doesn't mean she owes him a relationship, has to be with him, that she should be in love with him, and she's deficient as a woman if she isn't in love with him. And in love, really, is about hormones and passion and feelings that bring people together but don't become love if real work isn't done on all sides. What Buffy and Spike experience is bigger than "romance".
I'm repeating what you said far more eloquently, sorry about that.
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That's why the only way for Buffy to finally express her love for Spike was to have it at the time when he wasn't asking for that declaration or expecting it or even accepting it. And if they are ever to be together in the future, it can only happen if she pursues him after he's completely stopped pursuing her romantically (which he seems to have, for quite some time now) because he doesn't believe or hope it would happen.
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I've been having some major disconnect lately as a new fan because of this; so conversations like this (knowing it's not just me) restore my faith.
I've never understood the notion that because he says "I love you/I'm in love with you" she MUST return the feelings - feelings are nothing without understanding, and without the work to build the relationship, otherwise they evaporate into the familiar "I'm not in love with you anymore". And just because he says it, does he even understand what that means? That's a huge part of Spike's arc in S7: unselfish love, accepting Buffy for all her faults and strengths (his speech in Touched is actually pretty damn magnificent), learning what love actually means, loving not just who he wants to but applying it more universally. In a sense (and I'm only talking about BtVS here through S7) he loves the way she does when he sacrifices himself - loves not only the girl but the whole world enough to protect it and die for it.
it can only happen if she pursues him after he's completely stopped pursuing her romantically (which he seems to have, for quite some time now) because he doesn't believe or hope it would happen.
Exactly. He may "love" his "girlfriends"/lovers but it's with the condition that he in essence owns them in some way, and honoring their choices and agency really isn't in the picture. (Kidnapping Dru, abusing Harmony - who he is using for sex - telling Buffy "you belong in the dark with me." It's not all that different from the claims other men have put upon her: Angel's "you're my destiny"; Riley's "you're stupid if you don't go out with me" in Doomed, and then his insistence that she behave according to his needs in S5, etc. Even Giles' and Xander's judgements of her relationships with Angel and Spike ("why didn't you tell me" "It's none of your business" "Well it used to be." WTF?), are part of this pattern. And I don't say that to bash; it's part of what makes the characters interesting, and what they have to learn to transcend.
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