(Untitled)

[alisa_ivanovna]

Yesterday I got into an unpleasant discussion with another LJ user on the topic of Child Protection Agencies and the removal of children from their homes wither upon the determination of, or while the situation is being investigated whether the child is safer being removed from the parents or the current place of residence

Comments

[alisa_ivanovna]

Well, I am sorry Areg, but I think that IDIOTIC reports are worth the risk. I think that a hundred ruined reputations are worth the effort to find that kid who is being kept in the cage. Because you know what? On day that kid will get out of that cage, climb over the fence and stab your kid in the throat.

[uzheletta]

Aliska, i'm terryfied for myself and my kids after reading what you wrote :(
i think i love them very much and i'm positive that nobody will love them more or care for them better (well, maybe somebody may care for them better than I do), but I'm pretty sure there are many things in my house (starting from circumcision) that might be considered "abuse". actually, I was left alone in the appt, since I was 3 years old, there was plenty of screaming and spanking in my parent's house, still I'm terryfied that I could have been taken away by well-meaning authority. ALso, there is a lot of research on attachment, separation and its long-term effect. you might wanto to consider it.
(not to say that some kids shouldn't be removed. they should be, but it's an extreme measure, for extreme cases, and the system shouldn't assume that parents are guilty before charged).

[patterner]

Dramatic name-calling and borderline threats aside, it does seem that this is an argument about facts based on emotion. I am sure that it would often be difficult to decide after the fact how many cps cases were mistaken, but surely there have been some. Is there any possible way to determine how widespread mistaken child-removal is, and what the effects are? Certainly it must not be very hard to look at the success rates of children in the foster care system, and how often they are subsequently abused by foster families, etc. I am not under the impression that these kids have a happily-ever-after sort of life, but if the system is successful, that is really great. In any case, these sorts of things need to be based on outcomes for the children rather than on how strongly we all feel about these issues.

[uzheletta]

Aliska, mne kazhetsya, chto child separation with parents is a tragedy, and that's how it should be looked at. Sometimes, it's done to prevent an even bigger tragedy, but it's tragic nonetheless.
besides, a child is taken to a foster home, which is a temporary place, where it's not possible to form stable attachment to anybody. In many cases, when the abusive figure is the father (or mothers' boyfriend), the mother is hte only only emotional source of security for such a child, and removal from her might be experienced on many levels across entire life-span just like the early abuse is experienced on many levels across entire life-span.

[alisa_ivanovna]

no shit it's a tragedy!

did I give you the impression that I think otherwise?

[aregjan]

Well you know Aliska, how about we start arresting and detaining anyone who sounds or looks weird in our fight against terrorism ? I think 1000 inocent people jailed for 5+ years is worth the effort to find that terrorist who tomorrow plans on getting in a Boeing and crashing it into somebody's house.

As to somebody stabbing my kid in the throat, me actually being a parent makes me much more objecting in evaluating the risks and benefits. And my evaluation is -- the risks (at least in the current state of affairs) out-weight the benefits. When you become a parent, you too I am sure will have the opportunity to do an objective evaluation. And then we'll have an informed debate.

[alisa_ivanovna]

When you become a parent, you too I am sure will have the opportunity to do an objective evaluation. And then we'll have an informed debate.

no Areg, I will never have anything close to an "informed debate" if I allow even an ounce of the emotions I will feel for my own children enter into it.

That's EXACTLY the problem.

[aregjan]

The most core values in our society revolve around our feelings for our children. That said, none spoke of emotions. I am talking about the tragedy inflicted upon a family during a "mistaken" child removal by a power hungry CPA. For now you dismiss this as some triviality.

sovsem mne delat' nechego...

[shushandra]

There is a difference between values based on feelings for children, and values based on feelings specifically for "your children" - it's strange to me how most people here don't see the distinction. Indeed, the general attitude from the commenters is "as long as my children are ok, other children can rot in hell". the only reason no one here said it straight out like that, is because other children don't even enter your minds. Everyone here cannot see beyond the horror of being separated from their child. But as Alisa said, no one will separate you, honest. When my child falls down and I get called to school and asked about the bruises, I won't resent it because it's a safety check that in another case can save a kid who is forced to endure the unendurable. I know that I will not do anything to harm my child, so being scared of DSS is in the same realm for me as being scared of being beaten to death by a cop. It happens, system fails, there are crazies everywhere, but Alisa is not one of them. And select cases of DSS workers

Re: sovsem mne delat' nechego...

[aregjan]

Indeed, the general attitude from the commenters is "as long as my children are ok, other children can rot in hell".
********
Sorry, that's just your imagination. What people say is that they are unwilling to risk the safety of their children just for the hypothetical benefit of another child. Then you take this, and exaggerate it ad absurdum.

I know that I will not do anything to harm my child, so being scared of DSS is in the same realm for me as being scared of being beaten to death by a cop.
********
There are some MAJOR differences. I personally would never compare the consequences of being beaten by a cop to the consequences of my child being mistakenly taken away from me. Furthermore, there are remedies and recourses against police brutality. REAL recourses. Almost precise opposite is true for DSS -- you have a lot less rights when it comes to them.