A Dance with Dragons: part 3 of 3.

[alexandral]

The third part of the book was the best , most likely because all the characters are back !

Comments

[linndechir]

- Jon: much as I hate Melisandre, he should have listened to her warnings. I don't want him dead, though. I hate the idea of Jon being anything else but the Commander of the Night's Watch, and I will be seriously disappointed if he's a Targaryen and somehow ends up with Daenersy. BUT I finally find Jon an interesting character. He bored me to death for three books, and then he was really interesting for one book. I like ADWD!Jon, and I want to read more about him. I'd be so disappointed if I made it through three books of Jon being boring before he gets interesting, just to see him die the moment I start caring about him

[alexandral]

I think I am with you on Jon - I didn't think his chapters were boring (I loved all the wildling stuff and sizzling with Stannis) , but the fact that he is this special character that can do all the mistakes he wants and won't even be killed makes me shout: NOT FAIR. If no-one is safe, the same should apply to Jon. Or at least, if he is resurrected by Melisandre, I would accept him turning into a zombie like Catelyn. BUT AZOR AHAI!! No

[linndechir]

I loved Jon's moments with Stannis, but the wildling stuff was rather boring to me. And I think as far as plot armour goes, Tyrion and Daenerys are WAY worse than Jon, and I'd rather see those two die than Jon. As of ADWD, Jon is one of the most interesting characters, imo, and I'd hate to see him go or turn into a zombie. That being said, I don't want him to be AA either (though I'd still prefer that to Daenerys being AA

[alexandral]

I think the wildlings are important. The war with others is going to start any minute, so they will on the front lines of the battlefield. And I liked all the funny stuff with Wun Wun and Tommen. And Val is lovely

[alexandral]

I was terribly fond of Jon during the book one, but somehow over the books I lost my interest. His chapters were quite frustrating, kept wanting to yell at him: "Trust Melisandre!", "Kiss Val!". ** sigh ** So many opportunities, and all wasted.

I think Martin never kills any of his major characters "behind the scenes", so both Jaime and Stannis are fine.

I still can't see any prof Seven work - I like my religions to work. :D

[alexandral]

I was a huge fan of Jon at first, but somehow this worn off a little. I think I generally tend to like the outsiders, the wild cards and the dark horses. When he became the Lords Commander he stopped being one.

[kem_viva]

IA with pretty much everything except Victarion, who I don't think I could ever enjoy, and Jon and hoping he is dead. I don't even know why I want Jon to live (i think he will end up.azor ahai or at least brought back by Mel) because I am not a huge Jon fan. I agree he made too many mistakes, but I think if I could get Robb or Ned back despite theirs I would be thrilled because they are such good people, and Jon is the same. It's nice to read his chapters compared to someone like Tyrion or Victarion. If I could choose who I wanted dead at the end of ADWD I think I would choose tyrion even though I feel like GRRM is going to try to make him more likeable again and a head of the dragon

[alexandral]

You see, this is where I am coming from too: if Ned or Robb were killed off so cruelly by Martin, why Jon should be any different. :P

[kem_viva]

I totally understand what you are saying, its just I don't mind if its not 'fair', I just dont want them all to be dead, and Jon's the only one who has a chance now of being alive

[alexandral]

I don't really want him to die. I just think Martin is overdoing "fatal mistakes" trope. One more "fatal mistake", and this will definitely become repetitive.

Strangely, I am different. I guess I do always cheer for an underdog. I was abit bored with Tyrion when he was this genius who could do no wrong.. Now he is broken and he actually begins to think what he had done to Tysha.. and I am interested.

I really hate how he said he wanted to rape Cersei and how he treated some of the other girls he met. And if I ever hear "where do whores go" again....

Oh, where did he say he wanted to rape Cersei? If you remember the place? I am not trying to be weird, I just want to keep these things bookmarked (only if you remember). To tell the truth, Martin uses the word rape far too often, it is known. ALSO - CAN SOMEONE STOP TYRION FROM SAYING "where do whores go"? It is clear that Tywin meant this as a general "who cares"!!!!!!!!!!

Oh I know there is no chance for Dany to die, but I just wish she would sometimes, or at least get to

[outboxed]

I really can't see Jon dying just like that. I think that's because, so far, no-one has ever died after ta cliff-hangers where it looks like they're dead/about to die in all of ASOIAF. Fun though it might be to buck the convention, I just don't see it happening. Also, am I the only one who read the men of the Night's Watch attacking Jon as them being weirdly posessed or something? I assumed (for some mysterious reason) that it was all Melisandre's work because she was sure that Jon was Azor Ahai or something. I may well just be cracked though and I hadn't remembered Melisandre's warning about keeping Ghost close

[alexandral]

I also thought of the Night's Watch being posessed (briefly), but I was far from thinking Melisandre did it. And, yes, I don't think it was her because she kept warning Jon. Honestly, I think the Night's Watch members just gone of the rails. The situation was bad to start with (with all the wildlings), and then Jon announces that a)Stannis is dead, consequently there is no-one to back Jon up, b) Jon is going to abandon them and march to Winterfell, c) They will be left with the wildlings , but without Jon to protect them

[baleanoptera]

Barristan Selmy would have never laid a finger on Sansa, even if he was ordered by Joffrey.

Much as I find Barristan a fascinating and interesting character, I tend to disagree with your assessment here. Barristan stood by and let Aerys rape, torture and murder people - so why would be baulk at hitting a child? He didn't object to Aerys, so why Joffrey? Barristan would find a way to excuse his actions I'm sure, probably by the old Kingsguard adage "We're just following orders", and he might also might haunted by it. Yet when push comes to show I think he'd do what his king ordered him to.

I guess I find it interesting that Barristan, who everyone thinks of as this paragon of honour, has in a way lost most of sense of moral. Contrasted with that is Sandor, who is hardly thought of as an honourable knight, but who does help Sansa and tries to protect her. Which is just one of many ways Martin shows us how hollow the concept of honour truly is.

but when you see some solid proof that Melisandre does actually see some truth in her

[alexandral]

oh, I would totally argue Barristan's corner to death. :D There are many moments in ADWD where he regrets that he just stood by with Arys and where he even regrets that he rescued him from Duskendale. Also, Barristan was not there for the worst of it as he was with Rhaegar's army. For me, his regret speaks words. There is a moment where he remembers how Rhaegar's children were murdered and how he would have killed Robert on the spot if he was there. And then he sticks for children in Meereen. I believe he would have said "No" to Joffrey's order because he was already having doubts, especially because he wants to protect all children

[baleanoptera]

Yes, but regrets are not actions. Also he wasn't with Rheagar's army until the end of the war, simply because Rheagar wasn't with the army until then. Connington had an army, but we get no indication that Barristan was with him. Which means that Barristan was in KL around the time Aerys started to go really bad, though of course there were indications that he was rather crazy as far back as the Harrenhall tourney. Now, I'm not claiming Barristan is a bad man, but rather that he is a very flawed man - and one I think we will see try to redeem himself. As such his regrets in ADWD speak highly of the man.

Also he wouldn't have killed Robert on the spot. He would have killed him if Robert had smiled. There's a difference

[alexandral]

You see, but Barristan speaks with actions too, when he arrests Hizdahr. There is a question raised about Hizdahr (mind you, I don’t think Hizdahr tried to poison Dany as this is too obvious, I think people who opposed the peace did, or Yunkish), and he is not ready to serve the man who is "rightful king”, he instead chooses do what he thinks is right , which is a bit hilarious as he is not used to thinking for himself. But he does it.

The same thing would have happened with Joffrey as the questions about his parentage were raised. Joffrey is not the same as Arys for Barristan, and never will be. Arys was the king of the dynasty Barristan sworn to serve, but Joffrey? A son of the "Usurper" with unclear parentage? Asking him to beat a child? Mind you, I don’t think Joffrey would have ever asked Barristan.

I just think he lost himself in trying to be the epitome of honour, and now he has to find the man he once was. As such both he and Jaime are on quest to try to reclaim the greatness of the Kingsguard, and quest which incidentally