Yes, but regrets are not actions. Also he wasn't with Rheagar's army until the end of the war, simply because Rheagar wasn't with the army until then. Connington had an army, but we get no indication that Barristan was with him. Which means that Barristan was in KL around the time Aerys started to go really bad, though of course there were indications that he was rather crazy as far back as the Harrenhall tourney. Now, I'm not claiming Barristan is a bad man, but rather that he is a very flawed man - and one I think we will see try to redeem himself. As such his regrets in ADWD speak highly of the man.
Also he wouldn't have killed Robert on the spot. He would have killed him if Robert had smiled. There's a difference.
I find Barristan to be one who has been blinded by the idea of chivalry being a very specific thing, and who interpreted the oath of the Kingsguard to the letter - rather than trying to grasp the essence of that oath. In contrast to what both Jaime and Sandor did. So don't get me wrong. I really like Barristan. I just think he lost himself in trying to be the epitome of honour, and now he has to find the man he once was. As such both he and Jaime are on quest to try to reclaim the greatness of the Kingsguard, and quest which incidentally involves their own redemption.
There are people who hate Sandor? But why? ;) Then again I guess we all have our favourites, and Sandor is one of mine.
Jon should have seen that Mel had the most part of everything right, he just chose NOT to see.
Oh, parts of it is that he didn't want to see, as he is generally rather sceptical of sorcery. (a rather interesting opposition to Dany btw.)Parts of it were based on the fact that he really doesn't trust Mel, and I don't think her trying to bewitch Ghost did her any favours on that account either.
where this idea to go off on a tangent to Winterfell in the worst possible moment came from???
Because he doesn't know that Arya is Jeyne Poole, and so he thinks Ramsey is hunting the sister he was closest to. The same Ramsey who mentions in his letter that he's made a cloak out of the spear wives. Jon couldn't save his father, couldn't save Robb- but he is given a chance to save Arya as so he takes it. Idiotic perhaps, but believable and rather human.
Also Ramsey threatens to come after him, and Castle Black cannot be defended from the south. If he stays at the Wall they'll be sitting ducks, but if he meets Ramsey on another battlefield he might have a chance, and if not then at least Castle Black might be spared. But on a whole I think Jon just snapped, and decided to hell with his vows.
Yet I rather liked that Jon made a mistake, particularly since so much of the criticism against Jon has been that he's had it too easy and that he was such a typical hero and so forth. Then he went ahead and made a huge blunder, and will possibly pay dearly for it. I don't think he'll die, mostly because it makes no narrative sense for him to die at this stage. (On a narrative/meta level Ned wasn't killed because he made a mistake. Ned died because he could reveal to much of the plot, aka the truth about Lyanna and so forth. Also, without Dead!Ned no King Robb or RW.)
I think it is enough already, I am not of course angry with Jon, I am just not that happy that Martin is re-using his old trope here.
Yeah, I think the whole "lock-up-the-wolf" thing is getting a bit old. He did it with Robb, and it was tragic. He does it with Jon, and um, it makes little sense? Martin should have found a way around that. Let Ghost be knocked unconscious trying to save Jon from Wun-Wun or something you know? Then have the conspirators strike, trying to get the knives in before the wolf wakes up. ;)
Don't worry about ranty. I love discussing these books with you, and I always appreciate that you're so open for debating things. :)
You see, but Barristan speaks with actions too, when he arrests Hizdahr. There is a question raised about Hizdahr (mind you, I don’t think Hizdahr tried to poison Dany as this is too obvious, I think people who opposed the peace did, or Yunkish), and he is not ready to serve the man who is "rightful king”, he instead chooses do what he thinks is right , which is a bit hilarious as he is not used to thinking for himself. But he does it.
The same thing would have happened with Joffrey as the questions about his parentage were raised. Joffrey is not the same as Arys for Barristan, and never will be. Arys was the king of the dynasty Barristan sworn to serve, but Joffrey? A son of the "Usurper" with unclear parentage? Asking him to beat a child? Mind you, I don’t think Joffrey would have ever asked Barristan.
I just think he lost himself in trying to be the epitome of honour, and now he has to find the man he once was. As such both he and Jaime are on quest to try to reclaim the greatness of the Kingsguard, and quest which incidentally involves their own redemption.
Oh, I think so too, and I agree - he is lost in his notions of honour. Only I think he is trying to get himself un-lost (which counts) , and plus to it blaming him for something he never did (beating Sansa) is quite unfair.
There are people who hate Sandor? But why? ;) Then again I guess we all have our favourites, and Sandor is one of mine.
Oh, I think the main reason is “alcoholic maniac” or something like this. Very odd. Never mind, more for me. There are some people that like his character too, take me right! I think he is one of the characters that are either hated or liked, nothing in between.
re: Jon
Everything happens so quickly that I am not even sure now why Jon did what he did. For me the main reason was “Arya”, because how Jon could not see that Ramsay was just bluffing with his words about attacking The Wall - why wold he do that? Travel all those weeks through the showy wilderness “just in spite”? And even then - let him come, let the Night’s Watch prepare for the attack.
In any case, he could have.. you know.. explained all ins and outs to the Night’s Watch, could have chosen the decision with their counsel? As much as I don’t particular think the Night's Watch is made of very bright people, I still think Jon “owes” them his loyalty. Instead, he just abruptly told them that he forsakes his vows, that is all. What was this not-very-bright bunch of people supposed to think? That he is off and leaves them to tidy after his decisions (re: wildlings).
But the main thing, of course is that Jon HAS sworn his vows. You see, I don’t think he ever taken it seriously, 100% seriously. He keeps reminding himself of the vows , but he is still wavering.
Yeah, I think the whole "lock-up-the-wolf" thing is getting a bit old. He did it with Robb, and it was tragic. He does it with Jon, and um, it makes little sense? Martin should have found a way around that. Let Ghost be knocked unconscious trying to save Jon from Wun-Wun or something you know? Then have the conspirators strike, trying to get the knives in before the wolf wakes up. ;)
Yes, and I think this is what makes me dissatisfied with the storyline the most.
Also he wouldn't have killed Robert on the spot. He would have killed him if Robert had smiled. There's a difference.
I find Barristan to be one who has been blinded by the idea of chivalry being a very specific thing, and who interpreted the oath of the Kingsguard to the letter - rather than trying to grasp the essence of that oath. In contrast to what both Jaime and Sandor did. So don't get me wrong. I really like Barristan. I just think he lost himself in trying to be the epitome of honour, and now he has to find the man he once was. As such both he and Jaime are on quest to try to reclaim the greatness of the Kingsguard, and quest which incidentally involves their own redemption.
There are people who hate Sandor? But why? ;) Then again I guess we all have our favourites, and Sandor is one of mine.
Jon should have seen that Mel had the most part of everything right, he just chose NOT to see.
Oh, parts of it is that he didn't want to see, as he is generally rather sceptical of sorcery. (a rather interesting opposition to Dany btw.)Parts of it were based on the fact that he really doesn't trust Mel, and I don't think her trying to bewitch Ghost did her any favours on that account either.
where this idea to go off on a tangent to Winterfell in the worst possible moment came from???
Because he doesn't know that Arya is Jeyne Poole, and so he thinks Ramsey is hunting the sister he was closest to. The same Ramsey who mentions in his letter that he's made a cloak out of the spear wives. Jon couldn't save his father, couldn't save Robb- but he is given a chance to save Arya as so he takes it. Idiotic perhaps, but believable and rather human.
Also Ramsey threatens to come after him, and Castle Black cannot be defended from the south. If he stays at the Wall they'll be sitting ducks, but if he meets Ramsey on another battlefield he might have a chance, and if not then at least Castle Black might be spared. But on a whole I think Jon just snapped, and decided to hell with his vows.
Yet I rather liked that Jon made a mistake, particularly since so much of the criticism against Jon has been that he's had it too easy and that he was such a typical hero and so forth. Then he went ahead and made a huge blunder, and will possibly pay dearly for it. I don't think he'll die, mostly because it makes no narrative sense for him to die at this stage. (On a narrative/meta level Ned wasn't killed because he made a mistake. Ned died because he could reveal to much of the plot, aka the truth about Lyanna and so forth. Also, without Dead!Ned no King Robb or RW.)
I think it is enough already, I am not of course angry with Jon, I am just not that happy that Martin is re-using his old trope here.
Yeah, I think the whole "lock-up-the-wolf" thing is getting a bit old. He did it with Robb, and it was tragic. He does it with Jon, and um, it makes little sense? Martin should have found a way around that. Let Ghost be knocked unconscious trying to save Jon from Wun-Wun or something you know? Then have the conspirators strike, trying to get the knives in before the wolf wakes up. ;)
Don't worry about ranty. I love discussing these books with you, and I always appreciate that you're so open for debating things. :)
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The same thing would have happened with Joffrey as the questions about his parentage were raised. Joffrey is not the same as Arys for Barristan, and never will be. Arys was the king of the dynasty Barristan sworn to serve, but Joffrey? A son of the "Usurper" with unclear parentage? Asking him to beat a child? Mind you, I don’t think Joffrey would have ever asked Barristan.
I just think he lost himself in trying to be the epitome of honour, and now he has to find the man he once was. As such both he and Jaime are on quest to try to reclaim the greatness of the Kingsguard, and quest which incidentally involves their own redemption.
Oh, I think so too, and I agree - he is lost in his notions of honour. Only I think he is trying to get himself un-lost (which counts) , and plus to it blaming him for something he never did (beating Sansa) is quite unfair.
There are people who hate Sandor? But why? ;) Then again I guess we all have our favourites, and Sandor is one of mine.
Oh, I think the main reason is “alcoholic maniac” or something like this. Very odd. Never mind, more for me.
There are some people that like his character too, take me right! I think he is one of the characters that are either hated or liked, nothing in between.
re: Jon
Everything happens so quickly that I am not even sure now why Jon did what he did. For me the main reason was “Arya”, because how Jon could not see that Ramsay was just bluffing with his words about attacking The Wall - why wold he do that? Travel all those weeks through the showy wilderness “just in spite”? And even then - let him come, let the Night’s Watch prepare for the attack.
In any case, he could have.. you know.. explained all ins and outs to the Night’s Watch, could have chosen the decision with their counsel? As much as I don’t particular think the Night's Watch is made of very bright people, I still think Jon “owes” them his loyalty. Instead, he just abruptly told them that he forsakes his vows, that is all. What was this not-very-bright bunch of people supposed to think? That he is off and leaves them to tidy after his decisions (re: wildlings).
But the main thing, of course is that Jon HAS sworn his vows. You see, I don’t think he ever taken it seriously, 100% seriously. He keeps reminding himself of the vows , but he is still wavering.
Yeah, I think the whole "lock-up-the-wolf" thing is getting a bit old. He did it with Robb, and it was tragic. He does it with Jon, and um, it makes little sense? Martin should have found a way around that. Let Ghost be knocked unconscious trying to save Jon from Wun-Wun or something you know? Then have the conspirators strike, trying to get the knives in before the wolf wakes up. ;)
Yes, and I think this is what makes me dissatisfied with the storyline the most.
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