Comments | vaberella: <br />Death of a 'Ship'

vaberella

Death of a 'Ship'

May 30, 2006 12:28

I've been meaning to talk about this for a long time. I have read rants from fellow John/Teyla shippers who have a tone of apology within their defense of Conversion. Now this is not another rant, this is a final refutation so people can shut up and get their eyes open and pay attention ( Read more... )

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iamtheenemy May 31 2006, 20:52:33 UTC

I'm a slash fan in fanfic, but in canon I just say "eh" and go wherever the show takes me. I didn't think that any of John's actions in Conversion can be held against him or to prove or disprove any ships. I mean, he was turning into a Wraith bug. Even though the tranformation happened slowly, we can't know how much of his mind was compromised from the moment he was infected ( ... )

sanssong June 1 2006, 00:41:27 UTC

You may believe that there is an attraction between Ronon and Teyla, but most of us (and I think most people) don't. I know it's convenient for the Sweirs and the slashers for this to be so, but it's just not there. They have a very obvious brother sister bond and the time they are on screen together or on missions together doesn't equal romance. So Ronon is NOT necessary to any discussion about John and Teyla.

As for your other lames thoughts that John ceased to be himself when he was infected with the retro-virus is just too ridiculous for words. It was very evident in everything that he did, that it was indeed him- only a very uninhibited him.

iamtheenemy June 1 2006, 04:33:51 UTC

(and I think most people)

I would say that to most people there is an attraction between Ronon and Teyla. I guess in order to know for sure we'd have to ask most people.

As for your other lames thoughts

I don't remember insulting your opinion or the opinion of the OP, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't insult mine. It is just as valid an interpretation of the episode as yours, since both are interpretations and not the truth.

I don't think it was evident in everything he did that it was him. In Conversion, I saw John struggling to stay afloat as the virus took over more of his control. I saw him have strength and speed he didn't know about and I saw him act out aggressively without meaning to. I take from this that in the beginning he was not aware of what was happening; therefore many of his actions and responses were out of his control, even before he got really bad.

sanssong June 1 2006, 04:50:13 UTC

Well for starters you came onto a private LJ to comment, so if can't take my opinon of your opinion - that's just too bad.

I run a fairly large Ronon Dex group and I know most of them don't see any romantic attraction between Teyla and Ronon. But you're gong to see what you want-

John's loss of his normal self control didn't mean that he was becoming another personality- it just meant that he had a harder and harder time trying not to act on his every whim and desire whether it was sexual or agressive. The thing that the writers were trying to point out- and I know this from listening to the commentary with Martin Gero and Joe Flanigan - was that this WAS John. He has within him all these emotions and desires, like most of us do. All the bug virus did was take away his ability to control what was already there and ramp up the nasty agressive side of him. So I still maintain with VB that John kissed Teyla because he had long been attracted to her. Period.

iamtheenemy June 1 2006, 05:22:38 UTC

The LJ was linked to the sga_newsletter, which moves this post from private to seen by a thousand people, and the reason I commented at all was because the OP seemed (and still does seem) like a reasonable, logical person. Furthermore, it's not even your LJ, so I don't see why I should have to accept you insulting me on it.

I'm not even reading the rest of your comment and I'm not responding to you again, because I refuse to engage with rude people who can't acknowledge the validity of other people's opinions.

vaberella June 1 2006, 03:06:13 UTC

Pt.1 of two part reply ( ... )

iamtheenemy June 1 2006, 04:45:22 UTC

both of Phoebus and Thalen "were great at manipulating the people and saying what our guys needed to hear in order to get what they wanted. So by your estimation Teyla needed to hear that?! For what purpose? Unless, it meant something to both John and Teyla. You just proved my point.

No, I don't think I did. Teyla, and everyone on Atlantis, cares about John. It doesn't take an alien probing people's minds to figure that out. Teyla was charged to kill him in order to save other people. Thalen reminding Teyla that John cares about her, maybe even sees her as something special, etc., just strikes me as a good way to guilt trip her out of murdering him (since she was obviously conflicted to begin with). Thalen couldn't say that John wouldn't kill Teyla if their situations were reversed (because of course he would have, as Teyla would have if McKay didn't pull off another last minute save), so instead he tells her that John thinks very highly of her, and wouldn't she feel terrible if she did this to him ( ... )

vaberella June 1 2006, 06:52:21 UTC

My goal again wasn't to prove that one ship was more live than another. If you knew anything about the animosity between shipper groups for SGA, then you'd probably have heard, if not participated, in the commentary about how much Conversion was the death of John and Teyla ship. This posting was to refute that nonsense--and to make it clear, that if J/T was dead, that S/W wasn't very much alive--and had no foundation based on that episode. And McShep?! Well that was non-existant ( ... )

iamtheenemy June 1 2006, 19:27:00 UTC

So how is what Thalen going to say do anything to change Teyla?

You're right, Thalen knows that Teyla will do what she has to do. She's not going to put John over everyone else on Atlantis. That's why he makes the comment about her being special to John. He's acting out of desperation. The odds are against him and he has to get Teyla to pick John over everyone else, even though that is unlikely.

As you said (What makes you think that John would not know Teyla well enough to know that she would take him out if there was a choice between him, one man, and the lives of about 200-300 people?), if Thalen could hear John's thoughts he would know that Teyla would sacrifice John to save the rest of the people--but do you really think he would hear that and go, "Well never mind then, I give up"?

No, he's trying to make Teyla choose John over everyone else and over her better judgment, and the way that he goes about it is by making Teyla think that John values her more than everyone else. He's saying, "Could you really kill someone ( ... )

vaberella June 2 2006, 07:03:36 UTC

I apologize for earlier, I didn't see this post.

He's saying, "Could you really kill someone that thinks so highly of you?"
Wow...now who's putting their on spin on things. But again I'm not denying your case, and I never did so, not even in my post. I'm saying that the possibility is there for interpretation. There could have been more reasons involved than just that. Again, my problem is the usage of the words, which I felt were not necessary--to plead his case. As you said an we have all said, Thalen knows that Teyla would do what she had too. There were various ways of guilt tripping her--without the words of 'he cares for you, more than you know.' It's much like when Teyla (without transient being) says, 'I put my trust in you.' There are a multitude of other terms and statements. Why those?!

But Thalen isn't thinking about how Teyla would feel after the fact. He is trying to guilt her into caring enough about it beforehand that she wouldn't kill him at all.There is no after the fact. You must have seen Teyla's face when ( ... )

Pt. 2 Reply. vaberella June 1 2006, 03:07:52 UTC

Turn your attention or open your memory banks back to Trinity. I have never seen a person rip into another person as I saw Teyla do to Ronon. She treated him like a belligerent child and looked like she wanted to turn him over her knee. Further more, she didn't look that impressed by the fact that she was stuck 'babysitting' for lack of a better word. To add something else to that...I don't think she was also impressed by having her trust used in such a way, to have him take advantage. Would you call Trinity attraction, in what sense?! It's definitely not love or even physical ( ... )

Re: Pt. 2 Reply. iamtheenemy June 1 2006, 05:15:15 UTC

In Trinity I saw Teyla attacking Ronon as a reaction to her being hurt that he would use her. I think that this did show her attraction to him. His betrayal of her trust hurt her enough that she lashed out in an uncharacteristic way. Plus, on a purely aesthetic level, boy was that scene hot ( ... )

Re: Pt. 2 Reply. vaberella June 1 2006, 06:59:17 UTC

The scene wasn't hot to me. But I'm watching it from a whole other light. Of course she was angry he disrespected her trust and friendship; but that wasn't love and adoration. Did you see the way she reacted when she found out the way the Genii lied to her in The Underground?! It was the same reaction of. What the hell?! But this was made doubly worse, cause this is a guy on her team, who could have caused not only his own death, her death and bring on a possible war to Atlantis. Do you really think Teyla was ONLY thinking of her self and not the possible repercussions?! What he did was outrageous and dangerous. It's not something one does as part of a team...she was correct in feeling angry and being upset; completely justified and that was in no way romantic or sexual attraction ( ... )

Re: Pt. 2 Reply. iamtheenemy June 1 2006, 19:31:57 UTC

I will list all the scenes where I saw sexual tension/romantic inclinations between Ronon and Teyla. You will then reply that you didn't read those scenes that way, because we obviously have different interpretations of the Teyla/Ronon dynamic.

Now you've just proved my point.

And no, I don't ship Teyla/Ronon. I honestly don't care who Teyla hooks up with, if she ever even does (and let's face it, this is Stargate, the only time we're liable to see anyone hooking up is with the help of alien drugs, alternate timelines or quantum mirrors). I'm just pointing out what I see as a lot of Teyla/Ronon subtext. I'm not trying to get you to agree with me, but you're not going to convince me of your position either. You asked me to point out where I saw subtext between those two, so I did.

Re: Pt. 2 Reply. vaberella June 1 2006, 20:00:55 UTC

As I said I can see some elements, especially the scene when Ronon comes in. But your defense is extremely superficial---and can easily be explained away. When you say you have a strong defense. Further more, you twisted scenes to see it one way, example would be Inferno and Runner (I dont' see love when a guy has a gun pointed at me and holding me for hostage.) I think I found Coup to be the weakest of them all, next to Trinity ( ... )

Re: Pt. 2 Reply. iamtheenemy June 1 2006, 20:40:54 UTC

My argument for Ronon/Teyla seems superficial because I'm not actually making an argument. I pointed out the scenes where I, personally, saw examples of the close bond between Ronon and Teyla. I made a list, not an argument.

John has shown he continuously cares--he hasn't done that with any other member of the team or Weir.

This statement is just wrong. If you want to talk about him caring about other members of his team specifically, let's talk about Grace Under Pressure. He was driving himself crazy trying to figure out a way to save Rodney. He even lost his temper with Zelenka. In Trinity Rodney uses John's feelings for him in order to get him on board with the Doranda project. In Aurora, Rodney even points out that he and Sheppard take turns saving each other's lives and now it's his turn.

In The Eye we see how much John cares about Weir. When Kolya tells John that he killed Weir, John's "I will kill you" always makes me realize how ruthless John can be when someone threatens a person that he cares about ( ... )

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