Death of a 'Ship'
I've been meaning to talk about this for a long time. I have read rants from fellow John/Teyla shippers who have a tone of apology within their defense of Conversion. Now this is not another rant, this is a final refutation so people can shut up and get their eyes open and pay attention
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No, I don't think I did. Teyla, and everyone on Atlantis, cares about John. It doesn't take an alien probing people's minds to figure that out. Teyla was charged to kill him in order to save other people. Thalen reminding Teyla that John cares about her, maybe even sees her as something special, etc., just strikes me as a good way to guilt trip her out of murdering him (since she was obviously conflicted to begin with). Thalen couldn't say that John wouldn't kill Teyla if their situations were reversed (because of course he would have, as Teyla would have if McKay didn't pull off another last minute save), so instead he tells her that John thinks very highly of her, and wouldn't she feel terrible if she did this to him?
That's what I meant when I said that Thalen would say what he had to in order to get what he wanted.
I agree with you that Sheppard/Teyla isn't "dead" because of the kiss in Conversion. I'm just also going a step further and saying that no ship was proved or disproved based on John's actions.
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Thank you for clarifying but your statement doesn't prove anything.
Let's look at the Teyla/John relationship on a non shippery level--if possible. They are teammates, they watch each other's back. Teyla pretty much leads second in command--if John is not around. Testament is in 'The Tower' and 'Instinct'. She watches his back and he hers, and they both have saved one another's lives on more than one occasion.
So I think it's safe to say that they both have a deep level of affection and we can tell that there is a bond, especially if we look back to S1 in Suspicion and LFP. Fine, we know this. What makes you think that John would not know Teyla well enough to know that she would take him out if there was a choice between him, one man, and the lives of about 200-300 people? You say John would take her out...I'm sure John knows that Teyla would do what she had to.
As I said before--Thalen and Phoebus both admitted to hearing Shep and Weir respecively in their heads. Then I would think that John would have said to Thalen--nothing you can say will stop her from taking me out. And I have to say when Thalen makes the comment of saying, 'Out of all the people here I only worry about one person.'--paraphrasing it's safe to say it's Teyla he's talking about. Same goes to the comment of Phoebus when she says, 'Why am I not surprised, that out of all everyone, your the one to take him out?' Which is testament that Teyla is not only a formidable opponent to take out John. But she was successful in taking out Thalen--someone Phoebus wasn't even able to do for years of fighting. That says a lot.
Now because of this partnership, they have, I think it's safe to say that Teyla and John both care about the other. But for Thalen to even say the words, 'MORE' says to me that there's a bit more involved here. Since she obviously would know that he cares for her, that woudn't fly. To say more than you know, I'd assume that there's something much more htan mutual rspect and the comment 'maybe sees her as something special' is marginalizing the point.
I would think it's safe to say that the situation can be read as Thalen possibly feeding off of John's own thoughts--not only to save his skin---and all I said was that this was probably a possiblity.
To comment on the guilt trip. As I said before Thalen was in John's head. He knows or has some idea on Teyla. He would know that it wouldn't matter on guilt tripping. Because no matter what, even if Thalen stayed mum. Teyla would ALWAYS feel terrible if she had to kill John. There is no if, ands or buts. It's a fact she would feel terrible about it---shipper out look or not! We ALL know this. So how is what Thalen going to say do anything to change Teyla? I think Thalen is smart enough to know that, but I wont deny he could be trying to manipulate--but I also feel that he's reading it out of John's thoughts. He fooled Ronon, with John's thoughts and what he was saying.
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You're right, Thalen knows that Teyla will do what she has to do. She's not going to put John over everyone else on Atlantis. That's why he makes the comment about her being special to John. He's acting out of desperation. The odds are against him and he has to get Teyla to pick John over everyone else, even though that is unlikely.
As you said (What makes you think that John would not know Teyla well enough to know that she would take him out if there was a choice between him, one man, and the lives of about 200-300 people?), if Thalen could hear John's thoughts he would know that Teyla would sacrifice John to save the rest of the people--but do you really think he would hear that and go, "Well never mind then, I give up"?
No, he's trying to make Teyla choose John over everyone else and over her better judgment, and the way that he goes about it is by making Teyla think that John values her more than everyone else. He's saying, "Could you really kill someone that thinks so highly of you?" Whether it would have worked or not in the end isn't the point. Thalen was trying the only thing that he could think of in the heat of the moment and with a gun pointed at him.
He would know that it wouldn't matter on guilt tripping. Because no matter what, even if Thalen stayed mum. Teyla would ALWAYS feel terrible if she had to kill John. There is no if, ands or buts. It's a fact she would feel terrible about it---shipper out look or not!
That Teyla would feel bad if she had to kill John is obvious. Kavanagh would feel bad about killing Sheppard. But Thalen isn't thinking about how Teyla would feel after the fact. He is trying to guilt her into caring enough about it beforehand that she wouldn't kill him at all. He's not worried about giving her some sleepless nights after John's death, he's worried about saving his own life. He needed her to feel bad enough at that moment that she would down her gun and not kill him. Obviously it was a longshot, but he had to try something.
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He's saying, "Could you really kill someone that thinks so highly of you?"
Wow...now who's putting their on spin on things. But again I'm not denying your case, and I never did so, not even in my post. I'm saying that the possibility is there for interpretation. There could have been more reasons involved than just that. Again, my problem is the usage of the words, which I felt were not necessary--to plead his case. As you said an we have all said, Thalen knows that Teyla would do what she had too. There were various ways of guilt tripping her--without the words of 'he cares for you, more than you know.' It's much like when Teyla (without transient being) says, 'I put my trust in you.' There are a multitude of other terms and statements. Why those?!
But Thalen isn't thinking about how Teyla would feel after the fact. He is trying to guilt her into caring enough about it beforehand that she wouldn't kill him at all.
There is no after the fact. You must have seen Teyla's face when Phoebus asked Teyla to kill Thalen/John. Teyla cared enough. I don't know what you saw, maybe indifference. I saw utter devastation and shock. Then to hear Teyla's words to Caldwell--and her statement back to Phoebus...Thalen didn't have to do a damn thing to get her to care beforehand. Here is where I can see him using her reaction to his benefit---and he tried to get her to feel guilty before his 'statement'. It wasn't working. He might have used that last statement as a last resort..but I feel it has some bearing of truth.
That is my focus. That truth behind those words, the possibility of what they may mean beyond the common ideology of it to save ones life. Teyla knows that John values her friendship and holds her in high regard, because of his defense of her on countless occasions. But to say 'more'...then if her initial thoughts are what I mentioned, and for him to feel more than that, well?!
I'm not saying John is in love. But I do think it could be a bit more than friendship!
VB
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