Death of a 'Ship'
I've been meaning to talk about this for a long time. I have read rants from fellow John/Teyla shippers who have a tone of apology within their defense of Conversion. Now this is not another rant, this is a final refutation so people can shut up and get their eyes open and pay attention.
When people say that our ship is dead what is the claim?! The claim is that Teyla was in some way 'raped'--- (which I will discuss later) for their lack of a better word; since it was against her will. I may not have been keen on the kiss in Conversion but I will have something to say about it, and taking into account the commentary on Conversion by Gero, DH and JF.
'Rape' is a word one shouldn't take lightly and should not be said lightly. Teyla is not a defenseless person and if she wanted him off her, she would have flattened him. I won't deny she was shocked (which was clearly apparent), but as JF said in the commentary, "She has that stop it, some more look." I can see that, because there are three clear-cut scenes in that kiss. In the beginning of the kiss Teyla didn't seem adverse to it, she seemed shocked. Then in the second cut, Teyla is clearly responding, and touching John back, check it out if you don't believe me. It was later on we see her pull her hand back, and we can assume the shock turned to reciprocation turned to realization. Which says she obviously knows that something is wrong with John, and they shouldn’t or wouldn’t have been kissing, if he was feeling in his right mind, and it looks like she wanted to kick herself for allowing it to continue. This is not in a negative light....but a woman who probably hasn't or isn't ready to define their relationship. Further more, a woman who probably does not want to take advantage---there is nothing to say she would not have been interested in another time and place.
Now he may have assaulted her, but this was the point of the story. That was not necessarily Lt. Colonel John Sheppard, as in John the Military Head of Atlantis, we know from S1 through S2 until Conversion. This was a man who was exposed to a high concentrated level of what Ford was exposed to with an added element. He was lucid but it was a John who was having his INHIBITIONS broken down, little by little, and pretty amazed and impressed by his sudden agility and strength. He probably thought he was near like Genghis Kahn, or Samson or Hercules. It's John without a conscience, one whom understands only NEED, WANT and TAKE!! He was becoming primitive and following his baser instincts. Could be why the first episode was called Instinct with Conversion following.
What does that mean?! He, as in JOHN SHEPPARD, had wanted to kiss Teyla and this allowed him to do that without really any thought to repercussions, but it can be said that Teyla figured something was wrong. This was a John Sheppard who didn't care about his personal reasons or even Teyla's, when considering a growth in their bond---and no one can deny there is a bond (if you do, then I suggest you watch Rising, Home, and Suspicion, just in S1. Because you need a clue!). This is just a man who wanted a woman and took what he ALWAYS wanted.
Now for those who think our ship is dead....let me put up an example of what is a DEAD ship. An example, is when a man takes a woman by the throat and almost chokes her to death. Please, please don't say he didn't do it or he was being careful in his aggressiveness. I am sure I was not the ONLY one to see Weir falling on the ground, and trying to catch her breath through her excessive coughing as she's speaking into the radio to get people after buggy John. We all saw that. No matter the ship or the viewer. You don't talk around that, you don't walk around that. He was choking her. That's ATTEMPTED MURDER. If he squeezed for longer or pressed harder, he would have either snapped her neck or killed her. Admittedly, he did catch himself in time, but he was aggressive to the point of killing. We all know Teyla wasn't about to be killed. See?! Now that is death, literally!
Yes, that was him in an advanced case, and people can come to the defense that he stopped himself. Comments like, he was so advanced he didn't know what he was doing. Get real! Why do I say that? Let's fast forward to when Teyla and her team are looking for Sheppard and they find him crawling up the wall. John took out about 5-6 soldiers with guns, if not more!!! He could have taken out Teyla, her gun meant nothing; her measly attempt at being threatening means nothing.
She's 5'2" with a gun, he's 6'2" with 50 lbs on her, and vast super human powers and skill at this level in the transformation; now he's stronger than her! When he took out 5 heavily trained marines armed with P90s, in close proximity. Teyla was no threat at this point, but John was to her. John could have taken that gun from Teyla and hurt her, if not kill her. But he chooses not too. He actually ran away...ran...he didn't jump away, he didn't climb back up the walls. He ran away to keep from hurting her. He didn't lay a hand on Teyla, when he was holding Weir by the neck and squeezing. This is to show how even as advanced his case was...he didn't do to Teyla, what he did to Weir.
Explain to me what ship is dead based on Conversion? It's definitely not John and Teyla; further testament to that is when he goes and apologizes to Teyla. He doesn't go to the woman he nearly killed. He could have killed Weir, as I've stated, and he did choke her. You can talk missing scene, but no one mentioned that there was a scene missing, not even in the commentary. Scenes were cut intentionally. John went and apologized to Teyla...not Weir...TEYLA. He just took a kiss from Teyla, when he could have or would have killed Weir. Yet, it's Teyla who receives an apology.
Just try to speak to me abut a dead ship. But let's not stop there, we see in The Long Goodbye---when Sheppard completely ignores Weir at the end? He's in a bed next to her and decides the Tetris game (or whatever he was doing) was far more interesting. He didn't even glance once at Weir--or was that a side glance. I don not think that can be called love!
Let's move on...rewind to the scene where Thalen intentionally changes the program on Ronon's gun from stun to kill, after he shoots Teyla and goes after Phoebus. So he's going after Phoebus to kill her and he just stuns Teyla. Why? Yes, yes, I believe that John had a little something to do with that and was protecting Teyla, which means he didn't want Teyla dead; on a side note he may have tricked Ronon but he didn't leave him for dead. There were many moments in the scenes, after Ronon is taken down where John had Teyla in his midst, and didn't touch her.
Let's do a little fast forward...it was TEYLA that Thalen says, 'He cares for you more than you know!'
This was not to the camera above Teyla's head, as I've heard time and time again (DELUSIONAL MUCH!!). This is to Teyla with a gun to his head...Thalen says to her, implicitly, that John is the one who cares for her more than she knows. There is no changing that scene around to fit your own ship, it's there, it's clear and it's blatant--John is said to care for Teyla, no one else! Of course this could have been used to manipulate Teyla; but let's get real again.
John knows Teyla, and after nearly 2 years together and working together we know from past episodes that they clearly know and understand the way the other thinks---can be seen in The Tower (It was bad, but clearly John and Teyla were reading each other--watch their interaction if you don't get me. Or their silent talks with looks,ie Duet, Runner, Intruder, Instinct...shoot any episode with them together.) John knows that Teyla would never choose or put his life above 2/3 rd of the expedition, and if she did...I personally think John would lose respect for her. I am also sure he told Thalen this, since both John and Weir admitted to shouting at the beings and the beings even said they can hear the thoughts. So, if Thalen read John's thoughts and heard them, then those words were John's not Thalen's. It would also show that Thalen could have said them to try to manipulate Teyla; or, said as a 'final words' by John through Thalen to Teyla--which is debatable. At least she knew a bit of John's feelings, before he might die.
This is where there's a massive difference between Teyla and John's relationship on any level; compared to the obvious non-romantic relationship of John and Weir.
So I'd like to know how one claims a kiss, as death of a ship; when obviously attempted murder is a bit more morbid...not even followed by an apology! Who can apologize to attempted murder, though? On one final note, I want to say, this entire claim is based on fact of Conversion, if it's difficult and hard to take in then re-watch the episode with an open mind and rethink your position. This is not to spin this episode into THE John and Teyla shipper episode, because it's not. It's to clarify the misguided attempt by various shippers, to in some way deny and demean another shipper group.
Obviously, there has been no analysis of the Sheppard/Weir position of Conversion as there has been of Sheppard/Teyla. We have the Shep/Weirs and anyone else against Shep/Teyla saying our ship is dead, in response I have read defense of our position; but there has not been a commentary on Shep/Weir relationship and it's complete butcher in Conversion---so I decided to contribute.
I would also like to say this is not to dispute or to argue against a relationship between Sheppard and Weir. Far from it, I have spent a lot of time on the JT shipper thread on GW and in other places, no shipper I know (and I know many) denies that Shep and Weir are very good friends. They respect one another and since Weir is leader she demands and has the respect and loyalty of Sheppard, as well as the rest of Atlantis. We never denied that. But we do say there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ROMANTIC in their pairing. While, with John and Teyla there IS something far more than friendship, and that has never been denied by the actors of the show or the writers, or the characters for that matter!!!
When people say that our ship is dead what is the claim?! The claim is that Teyla was in some way 'raped'--- (which I will discuss later) for their lack of a better word; since it was against her will. I may not have been keen on the kiss in Conversion but I will have something to say about it, and taking into account the commentary on Conversion by Gero, DH and JF.
'Rape' is a word one shouldn't take lightly and should not be said lightly. Teyla is not a defenseless person and if she wanted him off her, she would have flattened him. I won't deny she was shocked (which was clearly apparent), but as JF said in the commentary, "She has that stop it, some more look." I can see that, because there are three clear-cut scenes in that kiss. In the beginning of the kiss Teyla didn't seem adverse to it, she seemed shocked. Then in the second cut, Teyla is clearly responding, and touching John back, check it out if you don't believe me. It was later on we see her pull her hand back, and we can assume the shock turned to reciprocation turned to realization. Which says she obviously knows that something is wrong with John, and they shouldn’t or wouldn’t have been kissing, if he was feeling in his right mind, and it looks like she wanted to kick herself for allowing it to continue. This is not in a negative light....but a woman who probably hasn't or isn't ready to define their relationship. Further more, a woman who probably does not want to take advantage---there is nothing to say she would not have been interested in another time and place.
Now he may have assaulted her, but this was the point of the story. That was not necessarily Lt. Colonel John Sheppard, as in John the Military Head of Atlantis, we know from S1 through S2 until Conversion. This was a man who was exposed to a high concentrated level of what Ford was exposed to with an added element. He was lucid but it was a John who was having his INHIBITIONS broken down, little by little, and pretty amazed and impressed by his sudden agility and strength. He probably thought he was near like Genghis Kahn, or Samson or Hercules. It's John without a conscience, one whom understands only NEED, WANT and TAKE!! He was becoming primitive and following his baser instincts. Could be why the first episode was called Instinct with Conversion following.
What does that mean?! He, as in JOHN SHEPPARD, had wanted to kiss Teyla and this allowed him to do that without really any thought to repercussions, but it can be said that Teyla figured something was wrong. This was a John Sheppard who didn't care about his personal reasons or even Teyla's, when considering a growth in their bond---and no one can deny there is a bond (if you do, then I suggest you watch Rising, Home, and Suspicion, just in S1. Because you need a clue!). This is just a man who wanted a woman and took what he ALWAYS wanted.
Now for those who think our ship is dead....let me put up an example of what is a DEAD ship. An example, is when a man takes a woman by the throat and almost chokes her to death. Please, please don't say he didn't do it or he was being careful in his aggressiveness. I am sure I was not the ONLY one to see Weir falling on the ground, and trying to catch her breath through her excessive coughing as she's speaking into the radio to get people after buggy John. We all saw that. No matter the ship or the viewer. You don't talk around that, you don't walk around that. He was choking her. That's ATTEMPTED MURDER. If he squeezed for longer or pressed harder, he would have either snapped her neck or killed her. Admittedly, he did catch himself in time, but he was aggressive to the point of killing. We all know Teyla wasn't about to be killed. See?! Now that is death, literally!
Yes, that was him in an advanced case, and people can come to the defense that he stopped himself. Comments like, he was so advanced he didn't know what he was doing. Get real! Why do I say that? Let's fast forward to when Teyla and her team are looking for Sheppard and they find him crawling up the wall. John took out about 5-6 soldiers with guns, if not more!!! He could have taken out Teyla, her gun meant nothing; her measly attempt at being threatening means nothing.
She's 5'2" with a gun, he's 6'2" with 50 lbs on her, and vast super human powers and skill at this level in the transformation; now he's stronger than her! When he took out 5 heavily trained marines armed with P90s, in close proximity. Teyla was no threat at this point, but John was to her. John could have taken that gun from Teyla and hurt her, if not kill her. But he chooses not too. He actually ran away...ran...he didn't jump away, he didn't climb back up the walls. He ran away to keep from hurting her. He didn't lay a hand on Teyla, when he was holding Weir by the neck and squeezing. This is to show how even as advanced his case was...he didn't do to Teyla, what he did to Weir.
Explain to me what ship is dead based on Conversion? It's definitely not John and Teyla; further testament to that is when he goes and apologizes to Teyla. He doesn't go to the woman he nearly killed. He could have killed Weir, as I've stated, and he did choke her. You can talk missing scene, but no one mentioned that there was a scene missing, not even in the commentary. Scenes were cut intentionally. John went and apologized to Teyla...not Weir...TEYLA. He just took a kiss from Teyla, when he could have or would have killed Weir. Yet, it's Teyla who receives an apology.
Just try to speak to me abut a dead ship. But let's not stop there, we see in The Long Goodbye---when Sheppard completely ignores Weir at the end? He's in a bed next to her and decides the Tetris game (or whatever he was doing) was far more interesting. He didn't even glance once at Weir--or was that a side glance. I don not think that can be called love!
Let's move on...rewind to the scene where Thalen intentionally changes the program on Ronon's gun from stun to kill, after he shoots Teyla and goes after Phoebus. So he's going after Phoebus to kill her and he just stuns Teyla. Why? Yes, yes, I believe that John had a little something to do with that and was protecting Teyla, which means he didn't want Teyla dead; on a side note he may have tricked Ronon but he didn't leave him for dead. There were many moments in the scenes, after Ronon is taken down where John had Teyla in his midst, and didn't touch her.
Let's do a little fast forward...it was TEYLA that Thalen says, 'He cares for you more than you know!'
This was not to the camera above Teyla's head, as I've heard time and time again (DELUSIONAL MUCH!!). This is to Teyla with a gun to his head...Thalen says to her, implicitly, that John is the one who cares for her more than she knows. There is no changing that scene around to fit your own ship, it's there, it's clear and it's blatant--John is said to care for Teyla, no one else! Of course this could have been used to manipulate Teyla; but let's get real again.
John knows Teyla, and after nearly 2 years together and working together we know from past episodes that they clearly know and understand the way the other thinks---can be seen in The Tower (It was bad, but clearly John and Teyla were reading each other--watch their interaction if you don't get me. Or their silent talks with looks,ie Duet, Runner, Intruder, Instinct...shoot any episode with them together.) John knows that Teyla would never choose or put his life above 2/3 rd of the expedition, and if she did...I personally think John would lose respect for her. I am also sure he told Thalen this, since both John and Weir admitted to shouting at the beings and the beings even said they can hear the thoughts. So, if Thalen read John's thoughts and heard them, then those words were John's not Thalen's. It would also show that Thalen could have said them to try to manipulate Teyla; or, said as a 'final words' by John through Thalen to Teyla--which is debatable. At least she knew a bit of John's feelings, before he might die.
This is where there's a massive difference between Teyla and John's relationship on any level; compared to the obvious non-romantic relationship of John and Weir.
So I'd like to know how one claims a kiss, as death of a ship; when obviously attempted murder is a bit more morbid...not even followed by an apology! Who can apologize to attempted murder, though? On one final note, I want to say, this entire claim is based on fact of Conversion, if it's difficult and hard to take in then re-watch the episode with an open mind and rethink your position. This is not to spin this episode into THE John and Teyla shipper episode, because it's not. It's to clarify the misguided attempt by various shippers, to in some way deny and demean another shipper group.
Obviously, there has been no analysis of the Sheppard/Weir position of Conversion as there has been of Sheppard/Teyla. We have the Shep/Weirs and anyone else against Shep/Teyla saying our ship is dead, in response I have read defense of our position; but there has not been a commentary on Shep/Weir relationship and it's complete butcher in Conversion---so I decided to contribute.
I would also like to say this is not to dispute or to argue against a relationship between Sheppard and Weir. Far from it, I have spent a lot of time on the JT shipper thread on GW and in other places, no shipper I know (and I know many) denies that Shep and Weir are very good friends. They respect one another and since Weir is leader she demands and has the respect and loyalty of Sheppard, as well as the rest of Atlantis. We never denied that. But we do say there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ROMANTIC in their pairing. While, with John and Teyla there IS something far more than friendship, and that has never been denied by the actors of the show or the writers, or the characters for that matter!!!