Dude, I could rant on this for some time...basswhooperNovember 29 2005, 02:02:22 UTC
... But I won't. I will, however, say that your point above is one of the best arguments against the Unitarian Universalist (and ELCA?) belief that, "Whether you call God Allah, I AM, Budda, Krishna, whatever... It's all the same God."
BULL!!!
If you agree that there is a God, then given His omnipotence (and lack of capitulation to our desires regarding His nature), would all of His edicts and moral systems (i.e.- the holy writings of all religions) be identical? Sure they would. And the fact that they are not is, to me, evidence that it is NOT all the same God.
Re: Dude, I could rant on this for some time...tv_elfNovember 29 2005, 03:25:16 UTC
Yet, I respectfully disagree. (Oh, c'mon, you knew I would.;)
Some people see me as the playful jokester others see me as the no-nonsense worker. I am both. And more. I do not think God is Buddah or Krishna or the goddess. But I do think God is Y-w-h is Allah. Just seen through different eyes and translated by misogynistic men. (Which is a discussion for another day.)
Good to hear from you...basswhooperNovember 29 2005, 23:37:29 UTC
One of my favorite arguments against the Yahweh is Allah statement came from a friend who is now an atheist. (moriarty6.It's a long story...)
Before becoming an atheist, he once stated "Any God incapable of getting His word to us is not worth worshipping." I.E.- God either is or isn't all-powerful. If He indeed is (as I believe), then misogynistic men, political machinations, personal preferences, different eyes, mistranslations (intentional and accidental) can in no way overcome His power and His will to make himself truly known to us.
Let me say (as respectfully as I know how) that your view:
A) limits God's power (if he cannot get His unadulterated word to us), and:
B) is an attempt by humans to horn in on His work and His glory. (Yeah, God's there and he's done some stuff, but I just so happened to be smart enough to winnow through the wheat and the chaff to get at the TRUTH.)
While I am a staunch Libertarian and would fight and die for your right to believe differently than I do, as a Christian who believes that El Shaddai means El Shaddai,
( ... )
Re: Good to hear from you...tv_elfNovember 30 2005, 00:33:15 UTC
New Hampshire abstains... courteously. ;) Yes, I've seen 1776 too often.
I think His Word gets to people. I also think He made a huge mistake... He made us stubborn fools. It isn't that He is incapable of getting His Word to us. It's that we stick our fingers in our ears and sing "lalala can't hear you." When of course, we CAN hear. We just might not want to...
I don't think misogynistic men, politics, or anything can overcome His power. I think they can be noisy and obnoxious and they will try to horn in on His glory. It's not being "smart enough" to hear His Word. It is God whapping you upside the head with a clue bat.
*three snaps*yourmamachulaNovember 29 2005, 03:05:56 UTC
you tell 'em, spk!!! :) i have to disagree with your second poster-- as far as the "Allah" part... no one calls buddha god, but beyond that, (spk, you prob know this already) Christian God and Muslim Allah really ARE the same god, as both faiths originated from the old testament and deviated at a later point. It's the relationship to Christ that's different... Anyway, I agree with most of what you said!
Re: *three snaps*leoetiquetteNovember 29 2005, 04:28:12 UTC
A God who reveals Himself as Jesus must be different than a God who refuses to reveal Himself as Jesus. The Father of the Son of Man cannot also be the God who would never become incarnate.
I think it's easily believable that faith can have different sources.
Re: *three snaps*basswhooperNovember 29 2005, 23:43:55 UTC
Hey there! As I told tv_elf above (and in prior exchanges, I like to be able to disagree with folks without being disagreeable.
That said, one cannot compare the Quran and the Bible (even the Old Testament alone) and say that they are identical. And you have pointed out the biggest difference: the Bible is quite clear (from Genesis 3 forward) that God would provide a Savior for mankind. Islam is salvation by works, which is contrary to salvation by the grace of God through faith in Christ.
But again, I disagree with a smile. Disagreement is a God-given, Constitutionally protected right, so "rock on" says I.
Re: *three snaps*yourmamachulaNovember 29 2005, 23:52:00 UTC
1- i never said the Qu'ran and the Bible are identical. They certainly aren't. Muslims, however, share the OLD TESTAMENT with Christians. 2- I am aware of the basis of my faith. Thanks.
oh yeah....yourmamachulaNovember 29 2005, 03:13:20 UTC
a friend invited me to a unitarian universalist service once... and I figured "why not? can't hurt to go see what my friend believes in!"...it was super confusing...cause...I couldn't figure out what the beliefs actually WERE! (the community stuff was all good and well, but I still didn't get it).
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BULL!!!
If you agree that there is a God, then given His omnipotence (and lack of capitulation to our desires regarding His nature), would all of His edicts and moral systems (i.e.- the holy writings of all religions) be identical? Sure they would. And the fact that they are not is, to me, evidence that it is NOT all the same God.
Well said, man.
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Some people see me as the playful jokester others see me as the no-nonsense worker. I am both. And more. I do not think God is Buddah or Krishna or the goddess. But I do think God is Y-w-h is Allah. Just seen through different eyes and translated by misogynistic men. (Which is a discussion for another day.)
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Before becoming an atheist, he once stated "Any God incapable of getting His word to us is not worth worshipping." I.E.- God either is or isn't all-powerful. If He indeed is (as I believe), then misogynistic men, political machinations, personal preferences, different eyes, mistranslations (intentional and accidental) can in no way overcome His power and His will to make himself truly known to us.
Let me say (as respectfully as I know how) that your view:
A) limits God's power (if he cannot get His unadulterated word to us), and:
B) is an attempt by humans to horn in on His work and His glory. (Yeah, God's there and he's done some stuff, but I just so happened to be smart enough to winnow through the wheat and the chaff to get at the TRUTH.)
While I am a staunch Libertarian and would fight and die for your right to believe differently than I do, as a Christian who believes that El Shaddai means El Shaddai, ( ... )
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I think His Word gets to people. I also think He made a huge mistake... He made us stubborn fools. It isn't that He is incapable of getting His Word to us. It's that we stick our fingers in our ears and sing "lalala can't hear you." When of course, we CAN hear. We just might not want to...
I don't think misogynistic men, politics, or anything can overcome His power. I think they can be noisy and obnoxious and they will try to horn in on His glory. It's not being "smart enough" to hear His Word. It is God whapping you upside the head with a clue bat.
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I think it's easily believable that faith can have different sources.
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That said, one cannot compare the Quran and the Bible (even the Old Testament alone) and say that they are identical. And you have pointed out the biggest difference: the Bible is quite clear (from Genesis 3 forward) that God would provide a Savior for mankind. Islam is salvation by works, which is contrary to salvation by the grace of God through faith in Christ.
But again, I disagree with a smile. Disagreement is a God-given, Constitutionally protected right, so "rock on" says I.
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2- I am aware of the basis of my faith. Thanks.
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Exactly. The more you try to define "God" the farther removed from "God" you become. People who fail to realize this may never truly know God.
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