On Discouragement

[ragnvaeig]

I had a discussion with a friend about a particular prospect who is currently considering dedicating himself to religious path that's at least very similar to the one I've chosen. Without having any real information on said prospect's level of commitment, to me this person seems to have an incomplete understanding of what this particular deity

Comments

[sterling_raptor]

I don't discourage someone from what they believe is their path because it is just as easy to let them walk it and figure that out for themselves. Anyone who comes to me for teaching agrees to a "learning contract" where I clearly spell out my expectations of them as a student, some of the things they can expect from the program and from me, and that either of us can choose to end the relationship at any time. When people who aren't serious realize I expect them to *gasp!* read books and do homework, to include write papers, they tend to find reasons why they will be too busy to study with me.

[ragnvaeig]

So for you, it's more of a passive "can you hack it?" question?

(And as a prof, I approve of syllabi and reading lists and analytical papers--that is awesome.)

[sterling_raptor]

Pretty much. I let them know as much as possible about the topics we will be covering, the books they will need to have (they can't borrow mine), and the different types of projects they will have to do which include papers, presentations, and arts/crafts. I want them to be able to make an informed decision about giving this a go, and it saves my sanity too because I am tired of "OH OH OH!!!! I WANNA LEARN!!!! Wait...this is work! BYE!"

[ragnvaeig]

Sounds like a useful process for weeding out those who aren't serious. Is commitment your main criterion, then?

[sterling_raptor]

Commitment and basic intelligence, as well as the ability to follow directions.

I mean, I don't want to read someone's paper who has no concept of basic spelling and grammar AND is too lazy to do more than run the spell check without bothering to proofread.

And the ability to follow directions is more than just blind obedience, sometimes not doing the exercises my way first can lead to trouble. Especially if I am not aware that is going on.

[ragnvaeig]

Commitment and basic intelligence, as well as the ability to follow directions.

Totally with you on those. Would that all students had all of these.

When someone doesn't meet your expectations, how do you handle it?

[sterling_raptor]

I sit them down and explain that there have been some problems with their time management, ability to meet deadlines, or quality of their work, etc. And that if I don't see improvement, then perhaps I am not the right teacher for them.

Honestly, having to have this talk has barely ever happened. Most of the time, when a student decides that it is too hard or some such, they basically stop talking to me. I will initiate communication no more than twice with no answer before I chalk them up to a loss. If they are someone I see at events, usually they stop going to avoid me. It's hurtful that they can't just be honest but that is usually how it goes.

I'm not ever disappointed in a student who quits, but more proud of them for realizing that other things need to take precedence and that they were adult enough to tell me.

[jinkun2702]

I agree with this

[ragnvaeig]

...if someone comes to you for teaching, you have every right to lay down very clear cut rules of what is expected of them.

Just to play devil's advocate and be clear on what you mean, especially since you use the prof example, would you say there are prerequisites to study, and don't those sometimes involve tests to assess depth of knowledge or other criteria upon which to base one's decision on whether to teach said person?

[jenett]

In Craft context, someone's existing knowledge base is one of the *last* things I consider

[ragnvaeig]

In Craft context, someone's existing knowledge base is one of the *last* things I consider.

By depth of knowledge I meant more their preconceived notions, especially regarding the deity in question, and their ability to formulate a critical approach, analyse, etc. In my opinion, one has to know oneself decently well to be able to decide what s/he wants, and that's something that can only be self-realised.

[jenett]

That one mostly doesn't come up for me: the trad I work in has specific deities we work with as a tradition, and as individual groups, but they're not restrictive: people are encouraged as part of Dedicant training to build their own relationships with a particular deity as they see fit. (Or more than one, though one focus at a time is generally advised.) So their knowledge of a particular deity is mostly irrelevant: their ability to fit that into *some* context that works with the group work matters a lot more

[ragnvaeig]

No worries--my day job involves an awful lot of interpretation of what people were trying to say while they were saying it.

I'm going to float an example to you: potential student thinks god X is the god of biscuits, when X is actually the god of cheese and maybe also the select savoury tart. Would you try to steer potential student to a god that will represent the cookies the student expects, or would you let the student discover the cheese and still try to relate to god x through quiche? (This is complicated by the potential for the student also to be lactose-intolerant, which I realise complicates the issue.)

[jenett]

Still wouldn't be a consideration in taking someone as a student. (Part of being a librarian is, in my opinion, being really aware of how poorly many people have been taught to find and make use of information in a way that actually works for them

[ragnvaeig]

Hm, interesting! Thank you.

I'm hoping to keep out of a mentor/student relationship with this person as I haven't the energy to handle that right now, but I think you may have given me fodder for at least a couple hours' worth of "let's help you figure this out, shall we?"

[jenett]

If you haven't read (or they haven't read) _Devoted to You_, edited by Judy Harrow, that might be an excellent place to have them start: four people wrote extensive essays about how they developed their relationship with a particular deity (Anubis, Brigid, Aphrodite, and Gaia) and talk about resources, but also the process of working out what stuff books say vs. what stuff comes via personal experience.