On Discouragement

[ragnvaeig]

I had a discussion with a friend about a particular prospect who is currently considering dedicating himself to religious path that's at least very similar to the one I've chosen. Without having any real information on said prospect's level of commitment, to me this person seems to have an incomplete understanding of what this particular deity

Comments

[jenett]

That one mostly doesn't come up for me: the trad I work in has specific deities we work with as a tradition, and as individual groups, but they're not restrictive: people are encouraged as part of Dedicant training to build their own relationships with a particular deity as they see fit. (Or more than one, though one focus at a time is generally advised.) So their knowledge of a particular deity is mostly irrelevant: their ability to fit that into *some* context that works with the group work matters a lot more.

(By 'some context' I mean that they're able to deal with the range of ways people in the tradition develop deity relationships, the practices we share in group work, and the fact that some particular kinds of deity commitments are things that we basically disallow while someone is in their Dedicant year: they can make a temporary commitment during that time that they can re-evaluate once that period of training is finished either by initiation or by them deciding the group is not the right fit for their needs, but basically, we consider the Dedicant year a time of lots of potential transition and consider it a bad time to make lasting unalterable commitments.)

In terms of the rest of it, I'm a relatively new coven leader, but had about 5 years worth of experience helping teach in a teaching coven setting before I hived off in various forms (teaching a short series of intro classes, then our Dedicant classes, teaching individual classes for higher degree work) plus doing the occasional workshop in broader community settings.

I've worked with and taught people with a wide range of formal education backgrounds, with a wide range of levels of self-awareness, with varying levels of social skills, pretty much every 'category' of knowledge you can think of. There are things it's certainly *easier* to start with, but I've found that people who are truly interested in learning them can almost always in fact learn them regardless of start point. (Whether they want to is much more the issue, also the question of whether they're willing to put in the work.)

I have a feeling this doesn't answer your question, but since I'm not sure what else might be confusing in this thread of conversation, will let you ask more questions here if I'm continuing to be confusing.

[ragnvaeig]

No worries--my day job involves an awful lot of interpretation of what people were trying to say while they were saying it.

I'm going to float an example to you: potential student thinks god X is the god of biscuits, when X is actually the god of cheese and maybe also the select savoury tart. Would you try to steer potential student to a god that will represent the cookies the student expects, or would you let the student discover the cheese and still try to relate to god x through quiche? (This is complicated by the potential for the student also to be lactose-intolerant, which I realise complicates the issue.)

[jenett]

Still wouldn't be a consideration in taking someone as a student. (Part of being a librarian is, in my opinion, being really aware of how poorly many people have been taught to find and make use of information in a way that actually works for them.)

But, that aside, my general take is mostly:
- Ask some questions. How did they come to that conclusion?

- Look at the sources. Some books are really oversimplify. Some are flat out wrong. Meditation and/or ritual experience - the stuff we usually call Unverified Personal Gnosis - can be great sources, but they can also be misinterpreted if we don't have a context to put them in. Talk through this whole process with student.

- Ask the student to spend some time learning more - in multiple forms. So, for example, I might ask them to do more research, but also to look at meditation, perhaps creating some form of art about/to honor the deity, perhaps a guided meditation, perhaps a ritual we design together, perhaps divination. Exactly what I suggest depends a lot on the student, and on their current level of skill, and on what we're talking about.

- Talk about what comes out of that, and how the student feels about that. Talk about other options, depending on what they're bringing up - maybe exploring other deities. Maybe taking a break from anything around this deity for a time until they've got some more skills and context to put the relationship or interest into.

As I said, it's mostly not relevant for us until quite late in Dedicant training: up to that point people are asked to develop a cordial working relationships with the deities we work with as a group, but we have a lot of control over how those deities are presented and framed in the group work at the same time. By the time we start encouraging a direct personal individual exploration, the student has some useful tools and context to put the information into.

If a student came in and was all "Must honor this deity of biscuits in all our group rituals!" That'd be a huge fit issue, because that is by and large not what we do. Those deity relationships are mostly for personal work, though they might be shared with the group as part of a training discussion in a specific way.

I also suspect I'd have issues with persistent desire for ignorance - along the lines of "Deity of rare meat!" versus "Only Vegetarian Deity!" (i.e. stuff at the extreme points of the spectrum.) Deity of the select savory tart, I'd be encouraging more work and an openness to additional information, and keep checking back.

[ragnvaeig]

Hm, interesting! Thank you.

I'm hoping to keep out of a mentor/student relationship with this person as I haven't the energy to handle that right now, but I think you may have given me fodder for at least a couple hours' worth of "let's help you figure this out, shall we?"

[jenett]

If you haven't read (or they haven't read) _Devoted to You_, edited by Judy Harrow, that might be an excellent place to have them start: four people wrote extensive essays about how they developed their relationship with a particular deity (Anubis, Brigid, Aphrodite, and Gaia) and talk about resources, but also the process of working out what stuff books say vs. what stuff comes via personal experience.