On Discouragement

[ragnvaeig]

I had a discussion with a friend about a particular prospect who is currently considering dedicating himself to religious path that's at least very similar to the one I've chosen. Without having any real information on said prospect's level of commitment, to me this person seems to have an incomplete understanding of what this particular deity

Comments

[jinkun2702]

I agree with this.
It really isn't anyone's right to discourage anyone or to "test them." That is the universe's job, not ours. However, if someone comes to you for teaching, you have every right to lay down very clear cut rules of what is expected of them. Nothing is more frustrating than someone who wants to learn, comes to you for advice, and just ends up blowing off the whole thing or slacking off. Such things are rude, yes...but it still doesn't give us a right to sort of try and "select" for those who are worthy or dedicated enough to be a part of a belief system.

From what I've seen, prospective students in my particular sect are treated like college students and priests/priestesses are their professors. They get a syllabus, assignments, and even tests. That seems to be the way to go. It's easy to see who's devoted enough to set time aside to study and who's just trying to do it to be trendy. This, in my opinion, is the best way to go since you can still see who's serious and who isn't...without discouraging anyone who comes to you for advice or leadership.

[ragnvaeig]

...if someone comes to you for teaching, you have every right to lay down very clear cut rules of what is expected of them.

Just to play devil's advocate and be clear on what you mean, especially since you use the prof example, would you say there are prerequisites to study, and don't those sometimes involve tests to assess depth of knowledge or other criteria upon which to base one's decision on whether to teach said person?

[jenett]

In Craft context, someone's existing knowledge base is one of the *last* things I consider.

I do consider capacity for learning, and their ability to handle my preferred teaching style (which runs along the "Am librarian: if you can't cope with reading for content, and or dislike holding multiple approaches in your head while simultaneously recognising that we are picking a particular approach in practice for specific reasons, we are probably not a good fit for each other" - I can teach in other learning styles, but I do a lot of that at work, and you're probably going to get better teaching out of me in Craft life if we're playing to my strengths.)

But actual knowledge coming in matters a whole lot less to me.

I care:
- That they know enough to be able to make a decision that pursuing the idea of training with me (even in the earliest stages) is not going to be a waste of our mutual time entirely. (This part we can solve in 2-3 discussion evenings, less if someone comes in with general experience/background in the Pagan community.)

- That they can deal with the give and take of communal work with respect - show up on time, show up ready to do the work, understand what the group can and can't offer, offer or find ways to contribute to what we're doing (which includes asking thoughtful questions)

That has nothing to do with current intellectual knowledge, and a lot more to do with whether they're a decent person who fits sufficiently well with group culture.

- That they're able to learn: I do the intellectual thing just fine (see also: librarian) but I want my religious life to stretch me in all directions, and my students - that means being able to learn the basic knowledge stuff, be able to learn or look up the stuff that doesn't need to be in immediate memory, and to be able to actively apply it to make their lives change (ideally for the better.) Those are, however, all different kinds of learning, and existing knowledge isn't a great marker for how well someone will do it.

I do test for knowledge - but only after someone's been accepted as a Dedicant, and I want to see exactly where we should start in detail/what kinds of framing around terminology we should begin with/etc. I've got a very definite idea where we need to end up, but I adjust how we get there based on what they come in with.

[ragnvaeig]

In Craft context, someone's existing knowledge base is one of the *last* things I consider.

By depth of knowledge I meant more their preconceived notions, especially regarding the deity in question, and their ability to formulate a critical approach, analyse, etc. In my opinion, one has to know oneself decently well to be able to decide what s/he wants, and that's something that can only be self-realised.

[jenett]

That one mostly doesn't come up for me: the trad I work in has specific deities we work with as a tradition, and as individual groups, but they're not restrictive: people are encouraged as part of Dedicant training to build their own relationships with a particular deity as they see fit. (Or more than one, though one focus at a time is generally advised.) So their knowledge of a particular deity is mostly irrelevant: their ability to fit that into *some* context that works with the group work matters a lot more.

(By 'some context' I mean that they're able to deal with the range of ways people in the tradition develop deity relationships, the practices we share in group work, and the fact that some particular kinds of deity commitments are things that we basically disallow while someone is in their Dedicant year: they can make a temporary commitment during that time that they can re-evaluate once that period of training is finished either by initiation or by them deciding the group is not the right fit for their needs, but basically, we consider the Dedicant year a time of lots of potential transition and consider it a bad time to make lasting unalterable commitments.)

In terms of the rest of it, I'm a relatively new coven leader, but had about 5 years worth of experience helping teach in a teaching coven setting before I hived off in various forms (teaching a short series of intro classes, then our Dedicant classes, teaching individual classes for higher degree work) plus doing the occasional workshop in broader community settings.

I've worked with and taught people with a wide range of formal education backgrounds, with a wide range of levels of self-awareness, with varying levels of social skills, pretty much every 'category' of knowledge you can think of. There are things it's certainly *easier* to start with, but I've found that people who are truly interested in learning them can almost always in fact learn them regardless of start point. (Whether they want to is much more the issue, also the question of whether they're willing to put in the work.)

I have a feeling this doesn't answer your question, but since I'm not sure what else might be confusing in this thread of conversation, will let you ask more questions here if I'm continuing to be confusing.

[ragnvaeig]

No worries--my day job involves an awful lot of interpretation of what people were trying to say while they were saying it.

I'm going to float an example to you: potential student thinks god X is the god of biscuits, when X is actually the god of cheese and maybe also the select savoury tart. Would you try to steer potential student to a god that will represent the cookies the student expects, or would you let the student discover the cheese and still try to relate to god x through quiche? (This is complicated by the potential for the student also to be lactose-intolerant, which I realise complicates the issue.)

[jenett]

Still wouldn't be a consideration in taking someone as a student. (Part of being a librarian is, in my opinion, being really aware of how poorly many people have been taught to find and make use of information in a way that actually works for them.)

But, that aside, my general take is mostly:
- Ask some questions. How did they come to that conclusion?

- Look at the sources. Some books are really oversimplify. Some are flat out wrong. Meditation and/or ritual experience - the stuff we usually call Unverified Personal Gnosis - can be great sources, but they can also be misinterpreted if we don't have a context to put them in. Talk through this whole process with student.

- Ask the student to spend some time learning more - in multiple forms. So, for example, I might ask them to do more research, but also to look at meditation, perhaps creating some form of art about/to honor the deity, perhaps a guided meditation, perhaps a ritual we design together, perhaps divination. Exactly what I suggest depends a lot on the student, and on their current level of skill, and on what we're talking about.

- Talk about what comes out of that, and how the student feels about that. Talk about other options, depending on what they're bringing up - maybe exploring other deities. Maybe taking a break from anything around this deity for a time until they've got some more skills and context to put the relationship or interest into.

As I said, it's mostly not relevant for us until quite late in Dedicant training: up to that point people are asked to develop a cordial working relationships with the deities we work with as a group, but we have a lot of control over how those deities are presented and framed in the group work at the same time. By the time we start encouraging a direct personal individual exploration, the student has some useful tools and context to put the information into.

If a student came in and was all "Must honor this deity of biscuits in all our group rituals!" That'd be a huge fit issue, because that is by and large not what we do. Those deity relationships are mostly for personal work, though they might be shared with the group as part of a training discussion in a specific way.

I also suspect I'd have issues with persistent desire for ignorance - along the lines of "Deity of rare meat!" versus "Only Vegetarian Deity!" (i.e. stuff at the extreme points of the spectrum.) Deity of the select savory tart, I'd be encouraging more work and an openness to additional information, and keep checking back.

[ragnvaeig]

Hm, interesting! Thank you.

I'm hoping to keep out of a mentor/student relationship with this person as I haven't the energy to handle that right now, but I think you may have given me fodder for at least a couple hours' worth of "let's help you figure this out, shall we?"

[jenett]

If you haven't read (or they haven't read) _Devoted to You_, edited by Judy Harrow, that might be an excellent place to have them start: four people wrote extensive essays about how they developed their relationship with a particular deity (Anubis, Brigid, Aphrodite, and Gaia) and talk about resources, but also the process of working out what stuff books say vs. what stuff comes via personal experience.

[jinkun2702]

There are certain rites of passage which definitely have prerequisites. These prerequisites are the determining factors that tell us if this person is either ready to practice or committed enough to try and learn. I don't think there's a problem with tests and assignments designed to assess someone's understanding of the belief system. After all, if someone is going to practice a religion, they should certainly be well aware of what said practice entails. These exams are all at the teacher's discretion and should be based on the things that he/she has gone over with the student just like in a regular classroom. But it is the exams and the students themselves who pass or fail. The teacher's job is to remain a neutral party always acting on behalf of what's good for the student. We aren't supposed to be biased. We aren't supposed to decide who's staying or going just because of the feel we get. If you teach this student, test him/her, and the outcome is that he/she is not prepared it is one thing. But it is another to try and discourage this person from even trying.

[ragnvaeig]

But it is another to try and discourage this person from even trying.

Oh, I'm certainly not trying to discourage him entirely--I just want him to have more accurate information than I think he's found so far, so that he knows what he's getting into and can make an informed choice, and I want to tell him to stop and think first.

Also, knowing what he *thinks* this deity does, I believe he'd actually be more interested in a different deity, and I'd rather suggest Other Deity to him.

[jinkun2702]

That's another thing entirely. I think people should have a good, firm basis of the religion or belief system that they want to join before they join it (so that, as another poster mentioned, no one wastes valuable time and resources.) Since you know about the deity in question, maybe you should try to give this person some info? If you don't have time to sit down and chat or don't want to have him become your responsibility you can find some helpful printouts? Perhaps suggest books or articles? Just don't leave him in the dark. Everyone should have a spiritual niche :)

[ragnvaeig]

Just don't leave him in the dark. Everyone should have a spiritual niche :)

...from the rest of my comments in this post, do you think I'm the sort of person who would do that?