YAAAAAAY ROBIN ICONS. OMG that "subject of schoolgirl fantasies" one is amazing. I HEAR YOU, KARA. (My brain is pretty much a backdrop of Dick and hearts right now, with frequent appearances by Babs and Dinah. It's... getting a little ridiculous.)
So in his view, it's okay to carry a gun and use lethal force when you've got official sanction?
Interesting point. I'm just starting Nightwing now, so I haven't really gotten to the issues yet where he becomes a cop, but... I would suspect he wouldn't ever actually USE his gun to exert lethal force? I dunno. If that never came up one way or the other, it's a wasted opportunity (especially during the time before his partner figures out his secret identity, because she, at least, would expect him to be prepared to shoot if necessary). Iiiiinteresting.
Also the more I think about it, in my very limited knowledge of canon, it seems like the "no killing" thing is a line that Bruce clings to because it's symbolic to him (though Alfred echoes it often enough, about how once you kill,
( ... )
My brain is pretty much a backdrop of Dick and hearts right now, with frequent appearances by Babs and Dinah. It's... getting a little ridiculous
I'm in a similar boat, with added Jason!
would suspect he wouldn't ever actually USE his gun to exert lethal force? I dunno. If that never came up one way or the other, it's a wasted opportunity
Yeah, I'd like to know if it was explored. And it's not like I expect that he would, but I imagine it raises eyebrows if one uses one's superhero skills to subdue suspects on patrol as a member of the police force. At least, once one has to write up a report. ("Suspect attempted to flee the scene by running into the street, but Officer Grayson apprehended him by doing a backflip over oncoming traffic and landing in the spot the suspect was aiming for.")
(especially during the time before his partner figures out his secret identity, because she, at least, would expect him to be prepared to shoot if necessary).Yes. This. If your partner doesn't believe you've got their
( ... )
"Suspect attempted to flee the scene by running into the street, but Officer Grayson apprehended him by doing a backflip over oncoming traffic and landing in the spot the suspect was aiming for."
HEEEEE. Yes! Actually, from what I've noticed so far (I've only read the first five or so issues all the way through but I admit to doing some skimming of later issues for Dick/Babs goodness *koff*), crime very often seems to occur RIGHT as Dick is getting off his shift, so he can conveniently slip into a phonebooth his costume! PERFECT. *g*
I think there are some pretty large exceptions in the universe they inhabit, you knowI agree. And what I meant to say, I think, was not so much that they don't all believe in the no-killing approach, but that I think that when Bruce says, "Once you kill one person, it's a slippery slope," the truth is that once HE kills someone, it would be a slippery slope FOR HIM, but--as you say--that's not necessarily true for everybody. Just because Bruce is a giant ball of rage waiting to explode doesn't mean
( ... )
crime very often seems to occur RIGHT as Dick is getting off his shift, so he can conveniently slip into a phonebooth his costume! PERFECT.
It's lovely that the universe crime orders itself around his schedule. Otoh, if I had to be caught by someone in the DCU, I'd choose him, so maybe the criminals are smarter than they look. Hee.
but that I think that when Bruce says, "Once you kill one person, it's a slippery slope," the truth is that once HE kills someone, it would be a slippery slope FOR HIM, but--as you say--that's not necessarily true for everybody. Just because Bruce is a giant ball of rage waiting to explode doesn't mean they ALL are. Heh. IMHO. But I'm not sure he sees that.
Yes. This. Not everybody is like you, Bruce! Some people don't feel angry all the time! (Um, or so I'm told. *cough*)
But at the same time, it's weird that they make such a big deal of it--it MAKES it an issue all the time. Yeah. I mean, I get that it does make for lots of drama? But it's also kind of like, um, we know they're not going to do it -
( ... )
Cass killed one person as a child on her dad's instructions, and that's what made her realize it was wrong and run away from him. Until then she'd been raised to kill
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But it's left open about how that might be a problem since Dick isn't planning to kill anybody as a cop and would presumably avoid it.
Oh, I totally didn't think he had any plans to use it (or ever actually did use it, tbh), but I do think it's an interesting tidbit, given how anti-gun they all seem to be. (Otoh, I think brynnmck makes a solid point about having his partner's back in terms of them relying on him to be willing to shoot [or otherwise disable a suspect] when necessary.)
And Tim, I think, also points out that it's a practical measure and that if they started killing people the cops wouldn't be able to let them operate etc.
That makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, yes, obviously, the moral implications and the effect killing has on the person doing it etc., but they don't necessarily make a strong argument to me when dealing with fictional recidivist supervillains, where killing them would be more likely to save a lot more people (and taxpayer money).
Oh yeah, I didn't think you thought he would use it. I just remember the scene as being interesting the way everything had to be unsaid. Because Dick wasn't going to promise Bruce that he wouldn't use his gun as a cop because when he was a cop he was a cop. And Bruce wasn't going to forbid Dick to use it, obviously, but felt the need to point out that it was a big conflict between what he would do as Nightwing etc. So it was one of those "my boy's all grown up now" moments because Bruce almost made a show of letting him do what he thought was right, even though he never ever liked Dick being a cop.
At least that's the way I remember it. I could be totally getting it wrong in my head!
So I'd say everyone goes along with it because they actually agree with it, but they feel really strongly about it because of Bruce (except for Cass, maybe?). Like Tim is more intellectual about it. Dick is emotional about it because it means that he let Bruce down. But they all actually agree with it.
Yes, right, that makes total sense. That's an excellent way of putting it. (And thank you for the clarifications about canon, too--I am WAY new to all of this so there is a staggering amount of canon I'm missing. Not for lack of trying, but. It's just gonna take a while. *g*)
Like I said to Victoria, though, it is interesting to me that the slippery-slope idea may be true for Bruce (or at least he thinks it is), but I'm not sure that it would necessarily be true for the rest of them. And really, Dick's angst over letting Blockbuster die, or (kind of) killing the Joker, is kind of an example of that--it's obviously not something he would do lightly, ever. Nor would the rest of them, of course, including Bruce, but I have been
( ... )
Oh yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think that Bruce knows himself and he knows that if he gave into that darkness he'd be lost. And he's communicated that as a really important thing to the others even though it's not really something they struggle with. Although ironically Jason kind of does, and that's why Jason's the one walking around like Dark!Bruce unleashed.
Yeah, I guess I feel like part of his failure with Jason was a failure to recognize that Jason is not Dick, and that he DID need something more than, "killing people is wrong, yo, so don't do it." I mean, I don't think Jason, pre-death, was a sociopath; I think he did know right from wrong, but without the clarity that comes from experience, and it can be hard at 13 or 14 to understand why you can go this far but no farther, and the amount of control necessary to stop on the right side of that line. And I think Bruce figured Jason would get the moral component inherently and so he only brought up - that we saw in the movie, anyway - the practical one, which made sense to Jason, but which he also didn't push hard enough
( ... )
So in his view, it's okay to carry a gun and use lethal force when you've got official sanction?
Interesting point. I'm just starting Nightwing now, so I haven't really gotten to the issues yet where he becomes a cop, but... I would suspect he wouldn't ever actually USE his gun to exert lethal force? I dunno. If that never came up one way or the other, it's a wasted opportunity (especially during the time before his partner figures out his secret identity, because she, at least, would expect him to be prepared to shoot if necessary). Iiiiinteresting.
Also the more I think about it, in my very limited knowledge of canon, it seems like the "no killing" thing is a line that Bruce clings to because it's symbolic to him (though Alfred echoes it often enough, about how once you kill, ( ... )
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INORITE?
My brain is pretty much a backdrop of Dick and hearts right now, with frequent appearances by Babs and Dinah. It's... getting a little ridiculous
I'm in a similar boat, with added Jason!
would suspect he wouldn't ever actually USE his gun to exert lethal force? I dunno. If that never came up one way or the other, it's a wasted opportunity
Yeah, I'd like to know if it was explored. And it's not like I expect that he would, but I imagine it raises eyebrows if one uses one's superhero skills to subdue suspects on patrol as a member of the police force. At least, once one has to write up a report. ("Suspect attempted to flee the scene by running into the street, but Officer Grayson apprehended him by doing a backflip over oncoming traffic and landing in the spot the suspect was aiming for.")
(especially during the time before his partner figures out his secret identity, because she, at least, would expect him to be prepared to shoot if necessary).Yes. This. If your partner doesn't believe you've got their ( ... )
Reply
HEEEEE. Yes! Actually, from what I've noticed so far (I've only read the first five or so issues all the way through but I admit to doing some skimming of later issues for Dick/Babs goodness *koff*), crime very often seems to occur RIGHT as Dick is getting off his shift, so he can conveniently slip into a phonebooth his costume! PERFECT. *g*
I think there are some pretty large exceptions in the universe they inhabit, you knowI agree. And what I meant to say, I think, was not so much that they don't all believe in the no-killing approach, but that I think that when Bruce says, "Once you kill one person, it's a slippery slope," the truth is that once HE kills someone, it would be a slippery slope FOR HIM, but--as you say--that's not necessarily true for everybody. Just because Bruce is a giant ball of rage waiting to explode doesn't mean ( ... )
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It's lovely that the universe crime orders itself around his schedule. Otoh, if I had to be caught by someone in the DCU, I'd choose him, so maybe the criminals are smarter than they look. Hee.
but that I think that when Bruce says, "Once you kill one person, it's a slippery slope," the truth is that once HE kills someone, it would be a slippery slope FOR HIM, but--as you say--that's not necessarily true for everybody. Just because Bruce is a giant ball of rage waiting to explode doesn't mean they ALL are. Heh. IMHO. But I'm not sure he sees that.
Yes. This. Not everybody is like you, Bruce! Some people don't feel angry all the time! (Um, or so I'm told. *cough*)
But at the same time, it's weird that they make such a big deal of it--it MAKES it an issue all the time. Yeah. I mean, I get that it does make for lots of drama? But it's also kind of like, um, we know they're not going to do it - ( ... )
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Oh, I totally didn't think he had any plans to use it (or ever actually did use it, tbh), but I do think it's an interesting tidbit, given how anti-gun they all seem to be. (Otoh, I think brynnmck makes a solid point about having his partner's back in terms of them relying on him to be willing to shoot [or otherwise disable a suspect] when necessary.)
And Tim, I think, also points out that it's a practical measure and that if they started killing people the cops wouldn't be able to let them operate etc.
That makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, yes, obviously, the moral implications and the effect killing has on the person doing it etc., but they don't necessarily make a strong argument to me when dealing with fictional recidivist supervillains, where killing them would be more likely to save a lot more people (and taxpayer money).
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At least that's the way I remember it. I could be totally getting it wrong in my head!
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Yes, right, that makes total sense. That's an excellent way of putting it. (And thank you for the clarifications about canon, too--I am WAY new to all of this so there is a staggering amount of canon I'm missing. Not for lack of trying, but. It's just gonna take a while. *g*)
Like I said to Victoria, though, it is interesting to me that the slippery-slope idea may be true for Bruce (or at least he thinks it is), but I'm not sure that it would necessarily be true for the rest of them. And really, Dick's angst over letting Blockbuster die, or (kind of) killing the Joker, is kind of an example of that--it's obviously not something he would do lightly, ever. Nor would the rest of them, of course, including Bruce, but I have been ( ... )
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