S6 Evil Deeds

[ms_scarletibis]

Evil: morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked.

So, in my last post, the topic of whether Spike had been "evil" or not in s6 came up.  Did Spike do some messed up things that season?  Duh.  Would I classify him under evil during that season?  No.  In my opinion, regardless of season, Spike always surpassed the expectations of the average vampire, or

Comments

[dragonflylady77]

Interesting...

I'll have to come back later to see how the results have changed...

[ms_scarletibis]

Thank you!

*wipes brow*

<--wasn't sure if it would ring as interesting or stupid :p

[dragonflylady77]

*likes your polls*

[ms_scarletibis]

Also, we had mostly the same answers :P

Get outta my brain!!

[mulder200]

For the most evil, I find myself torn between Spike, Willow and Warren.

[ms_scarletibis]

Huh. Well, that's an interesting mix :P In the words of Ricky Ricardo, 'splain?

[mulder200]

Well, Spike is a vampire so evil comes naturally to him. Willow was unintentionally evil by bringing Buffy back to life and bringing her out of Heaven and then killing someone in cold blood while understandable but still morally wrong. Warren: well that just goes without saying.

[ms_scarletibis]

But what evil behavior did Spike exhibit that season?

Willow--she purposely tried to murder all her friends, which trumps Warren. Vengeance, okay, but trying to kill your friends? Buh?

[eleusis_walks]

Willow and Warren are both despicable, but Willow is an intentional murderer and a successful rapist in addition to being a depraved narcissist, so she edges him out for me.

Andrew and Jonathan are both culpable in Warren's crimes, but Andrew moreso than Jonathan obviously.

Xander is amazingly selfish and chauvinist this year, but whether or not that's -evil- is a matter of opinion. Buffy and Giles are just selfish.

Anya chooses to become a demon again, which is an evil choice, and presumably she hurts people in the name of vengeance. But clearly her heart isn't in it, and she feels compelled to do good, so.

Dawn is a teenager who has perfectly reasonable teenage responses to having the most selfish, distant guardian in town.

[ms_scarletibis]

Agreed.

However, I think I may be one of the few in fandom who wasn't pissed off at Giles for leaving. Tough love may not be the best course of action, but there was no malicious intent behind his leaving.

Anya--since she only becomes a vengeance demon and doesn't do anything about it that season...meh. Although she does try to get horrible/bodily harm things to happen to Xander, and she calls Spike convenient which is a personal sticking point for me, but not evil IMO.

Dawn is a teenager who has perfectly reasonable teenage responses to having the most selfish, distant guardian in town.

Ha!

[eleusis_walks]

I think Giles leaving is amazingly selfish and I don't buy his rationale for doing it. Buffy did need to stand on her own two feet, but that wasn't the time to force it. Frankly I think it's OOC and I don't like the fact that rl concerns impacted the IC world so drastically.

Anyanka never hurts anyone that season that we see, but presumably she's granting wishes or else the Order would be pissed with her long before "Lessons". But yeah, she probably isn't doing anything too dramatically awful.

[stormwreath]

I'll give it a go:

Of the two, which was more morally reprehensible? *Drusilla killing Kendra, or Professor Walsh's attempt to off Buffy

[menomegirl]

Oooh, I agree with all of that!

[stormwreath]

\o/

[ms_scarletibis]

Spike, because cold-bloodedly treating people as food is more evil than reacting violently out of anger.

The fact that Warren is a human with a soul makes no difference? Why are you setting Spike, a vampire, to human standards? I don't understand that.

Warren. He knew what he was doing was wrong; Willow didn't.

While I agree, I think it's still pretty low how Willow didn't get how wrong that was...and in a skewed way, that makes her less morally aware than Warren.

Angel, because he wanted to cause more suffering for everyone, while Willow wanted (misguidedly) to end everyones suffering.

I'll give Angelus one thing over on Willow--

He didn't try to kill his friends ;)

[ever_neutral]

OOH. Morally ambiguous discussion. :D

Drusilla killing Kendra, or Professor Walsh's attempt to off Buffy? *Spike killing the Magic Box shop keeper, or any other hapless victim for a meal, or Warren attempting to shoot Buffy dead?

The latter for both. I tend to judge humans doing evil things more harshly than vampires doing evil things. Demons don't essentially have a choice; they're wired to commit evil. Human beings are the only creatures in the Buffyverse who choose to do evil.

*Angelus killing Jenny Calendar to make sure his soul didn't come back, or The Mayor selling his soul for immortality so that he could one day become a big ass snake demon to eat people?

The latter. Higher body count.

*Spike attacking Buffy in the bathroom, or Warren using the cerebral dampener to control Katrina in order to be his sex slave?

The latter. It was premeditated.

*Warren using the cerebral dampener to make Katrina his sex slave, or Willow using her spells to erase Tara's memories of a fight, and later has sex with her?This is tricky. Warren

[ms_scarletibis]

The latter for both. I tend to judge humans doing evil things more harshly than vampires doing evil things.

THIS. Yep.

Willow seemed horrified that Tara thought it was even a violation.

It's kind of as if, Willow's moral compass was non existent. I don't get how one can't see the wrongness there...

In both cases, they *appear* to really want to inflict damage on the other person; but their horror after the fact indicates an absence of evil intent.

Gonna disagree. Spike's intent was not to harm--that's how they'd been relating to each other for the bulk of the season. No. Stop. Make me. etc. Buffy did, however, have malicious intent in that alley. Furthermore, she leaves him there. No apologies or admittance that she was wrong--she just avoids him. Spike on the other hand, goes to get his soul so he won't cock up so horribly again. It's a vast imbalance. I don't believe that Buffy ever really thought she did anything wrong, simply because Spike didn't have a soul at the time. She admits to having used him, but she never

[harsens_rob]

Willow seemed horrified that Tara thought it was even a violation.

It's kind of as if, Willow's moral compass was non existent. I don't get how one can't see the wrongness there...

I think Willow's moral compass was gone by this point. And she didn't see the wrongness because it wasn't about "forcing" or "violating" Tara, it was about making Tara's anger go away. Her focus wasn't on Tara as person, but on Tara as obstacle.

In fact, I'm starting to see S6 as ultimately being less about "life is hell" the way I'd always thought, and more about "this is how selfish we can become when we're not focused on others' needs instead of our own".

[stormwreath]

In fact, I'm starting to see S6 as ultimately being less about "life is hell" the way I'd always thought, and more about "this is how selfish we can become when we're not focused on others' needs instead of our own".

It seems to me that Willow's arc in S6 is a classic cautionary tale: a mixture of "Be careful what you wish for" and "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Willow isn't, at heart, an evil person. She has flaws, just like anyone else does, but she's basically someone of good will. But have you ever been faced with a frustrating situation, and found yourself thinking, "I wish I could just wave a magic wand and make this go away"? Well, Willow suddenly finds that she has that power for real. And she uses it. And uses it again. And uses it a bit more. Each time going a bit further. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions...