S6 Evil Deeds
Evil: morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked.
So, in my last post, the topic of whether Spike had been "evil" or not in s6 came up. Did Spike do some messed up things that season? Duh. Would I classify him under evil during that season? No. In my opinion, regardless of season, Spike always surpassed the expectations of the average vampire, or ( Read more... )
THIS. Yep.
Willow seemed horrified that Tara thought it was even a violation.
It's kind of as if, Willow's moral compass was non existent. I don't get how one can't see the wrongness there...
In both cases, they *appear* to really want to inflict damage on the other person; but their horror after the fact indicates an absence of evil intent.
Gonna disagree. Spike's intent was not to harm--that's how they'd been relating to each other for the bulk of the season. No. Stop. Make me. etc. Buffy did, however, have malicious intent in that alley. Furthermore, she leaves him there. No apologies or admittance that she was wrong--she just avoids him. Spike on the other hand, goes to get his soul so he won't cock up so horribly again. It's a vast imbalance. I don't believe that Buffy ever really thought she did anything wrong, simply because Spike didn't have a soul at the time. She admits to having used him, but she never says it with remorse--it's more in a matter of fact tone; one of indifference. And that to me lowered my opinion of her tremendously. Irregardless of his having a soul or not, she, as not only a soul having person, but essentially, a warrior of good, should treat beings better than that--not to be used as a personal punching bag when she's down and low or just because she feels like it. That's not how a hero is supposed to act. And it's not even that she messed up--she doesn't own up to it like oh say, Faith. There was no amends there. Bah.
Anything I didn't address, I agreed with :)
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It's kind of as if, Willow's moral compass was non existent. I don't get how one can't see the wrongness there...
I think Willow's moral compass was gone by this point. And she didn't see the wrongness because it wasn't about "forcing" or "violating" Tara, it was about making Tara's anger go away. Her focus wasn't on Tara as person, but on Tara as obstacle.
In fact, I'm starting to see S6 as ultimately being less about "life is hell" the way I'd always thought, and more about "this is how selfish we can become when we're not focused on others' needs instead of our own".
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It seems to me that Willow's arc in S6 is a classic cautionary tale: a mixture of "Be careful what you wish for" and "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely".
Willow isn't, at heart, an evil person. She has flaws, just like anyone else does, but she's basically someone of good will. But have you ever been faced with a frustrating situation, and found yourself thinking, "I wish I could just wave a magic wand and make this go away"? Well, Willow suddenly finds that she has that power for real. And she uses it. And uses it again. And uses it a bit more. Each time going a bit further. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions...
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I see the wrongness. But I consider it "less" wrong than what Warren did. Because Warren knew exactly what he was doing. *Willow* didn't seem to grasp the wrongness of what she was doing. Ergo, there couldn't have been malicious intent.
Obviously, we have largely different views of Buffy. ;) I'm just gonna debate some of your points, if that's cool. I do understand where you're coming from.
Spike's intent was not to harm--that's how they'd been relating to each other for the bulk of the season. No. Stop. Make me. etc. Buffy did, however, have malicious intent in that alley.
Honestly, I don't see that large a difference in their intent in either event. In both cases, where the attacker is wrong is that they (temporarily) cease to see the other person as an individual with rights and needs separate from theirs. They're both shocked at what they did afterwards. Which indicates that neither of them meant to hurt the other person to the extent that they did.
No apologies or admittance that she was wrong--she just avoids him.
Which is a sign of guilt. If she wasn't ashamed of herself, she wouldn't go out of her way to avoid facing him. (Especially since we know her visits to his crypt were apparently pretty frequent...) Don't get me wrong, Buffy deals with the whole situation terribly. But her avoidance and denial =/= lack of awareness that she's in the wrong.
I don't believe that Buffy ever really thought she did anything wrong, simply because Spike didn't have a soul at the time. She admits to having used him, but she never says it with remorse--it's more in a matter of fact tone; one of indifference.
Where I differ is that I DO think Buffy sees herself as being in the wrong. There's some pretty clear evidence of this. It's the point of her dream in "Dead Things", in which her subconscious casts Spike in the role of victim. It's the point of her repeating Spike's words that "you always hurt the one you love." (We can debate all day about 'love', but what is that quote but not a clear indication that her abuse of Spike has sunk in?) It's the entire point of her break-up speech in "As You Were." Which, I don't read as being indifferent. The speech itself sounds pretty rehearsed, wouldn't you say? Compare it to Buffy's usual M.O. re: Spike, with the yelling and punching and over-dramatics. Buffy is clearly anything but indifferent to Spike. She has to exert effort to not lose control around him. It is a matter-of-fact tone; Buffy recognises that she owes Spike the truth, and she also recognises that she has to stop stringing him along. There's really nothing to do but be matter-of-fact about it. But absence of strong display of emotion =/= indifference.
Throughout the season, Buffy's been expecting Spike to be both monster and man for her, and that's the crux of her unfair treatment of him. But when she breaks up with him, she doesn't blame any of her bad actions on him. She takes all the blame for their relationship in that speech. (And while she's done a lot of fucked up things, Spike also did fucked up things. But she doesn't blame him for that.) She openly admits to being weak and selfish. She explicitly says she's sorry. And after the fact, she acknowledges Spike's comment that "he doesn't hurt her." (Which... yes, he has. But Buffy doesn't hold that against him. Why? Because he doesn't know any better. And she acknowledges that.) It's a marked change in attitude from during their actual relationship, in which Buffy put all the blame on Spike as a way of avoiding responsibility (because she "came back wrong"). So yeah, I'd say Buffy most certainly takes responsibility for being in the wrong.
And I think season 7 is entirely about amends. She repeatedly goes out of her way to look out for Spike, at the cost of her friend's approval. (Which, again, is a drastic departure from her behaviour in S6, where her sole concern was what her friends would think of her.) If you're in doubt, I can give you plenty of examples. ;) Buffy's demonstration of her remorse is her deliberate adjustment of her behaviour.
Here endeth the essay.
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That is not the reason she gives him--she does it because it's killing her and not because she was treating him horribly. It's about her and his feelings are of no consequence. She even says this in "Entropy."
I believe it is real. For you.
She flat out says his feelings don't matter repeatedly--all season--that's Spike's emotional well being is worth nothing and means nothing since he didn't have a soul. It also absolves her from any true wrongdoing. Which was not only horribly cruel, but horrendously wrong. Which, she was aware of--she just didn't give a damn. And when she finally does, slightly, months later, she doesn't admit to any wrongdoing to the party who should hear it (Spike), but to some stranger she later stakes.
And I think season 7 is entirely about amends. She repeatedly goes out of her way to look out for Spike, at the cost of her friend's approval.
No, not initially she doesn't. She leaves him wounded and insane in that basement for at least a month, passes the buck off to Xander for some reason, and when she finally does take him in, she tells her friends it's in order to get closer to the "thing that's playing us," and not about saving Spike.
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She explicitly admits to treating him horribly. "I'm using you. I can't love you. I'm just being weak and selfish." Spike doesn't start listening to her until she declares that it's killing her. She gives him that reason - which is all about her - because he doesn't care about himself. (Which I think she can pretty well tell after "Dead Things.") He doesn't even have the moral compass to see that their relationship (the way it is) needs to end. She doesn't say that he's killing her. She says that her being weak and selfish is killing her. Why would that be? Right. Because she knows that it's wrong. She acknowledges that his feelings are of consequence - she even calls him William. That's clearly addressing the human inside - the one that has feelings to be hurt.
Spike's emotional well being is worth nothing and means nothing since he didn't have a soul.
No, she doesn't say that. She says that the way he feels about her can only be real to him, not to her, because she doesn't feel the same way. Then she stops and apologises: "I know that's not what you want to hear. I'm sorry. I really am." And then she urges him to move on. Why? Because the way he feels about her is bad for him.
My point is: This is a definite change of behaviour from the way she acted before - when she deliberately spoke to him as though he was worthless. ("You're a thing. An evil, disgusting thing.") She's not doing that anymore. Why? Because she recognises that it was wrong.
Note: I'm not saying the way Buffy deals with Spike post-breakup is right. I actually don't like it. Her urging Spike to move on is largely dismissing the way he feels about her. But denial is Buffy's M.O. She's trying to tell herself that there is nothing real between them because they have no future, and being around him is just painful for the both of them. It doesn't work. But I disagree with this premise that she doesn't know she's in the wrong, or that she doesn't give a damn about it.
And when she finally does, slightly, months later, she doesn't admit to any wrongdoing to the party who should hear it (Spike), but to some stranger she later stakes.
She already admitted wrongdoing to Spike. Her choosing Holden (whom she'll have to kill) to unload on is because he's the only person she can talk to. "I behaved like a monster, treated him like - " You acknowledge that she does admit to wrongdoing (albeit to a vampire she plans on killing) here, which contradicts your theory that she denies being in the wrong.
No, not initially she doesn't.
So, you acknowledge that after initial hesitation, she does go out of her way to help him?
She leaves him wounded and insane in that basement for at least a month
I'm not going to argue about time, because there's no way to clearly tell exactly how long in show-time he was in that basement. But her reluctance to deal with him is probably due to her trauma after he tried to rape her, and her shock at his getting his soul. I'm not holding it against her for taking a while to process those things. In the 5th episode of the season, she urges him to get out of the basement because it's killing him. And she makes him stay with Xander probably because moving in with her and Dawn would just be a bad idea, full stop, as a) he recently tried to rape her in her own bathroom, b) Dawn would object to it, and c) Buffy is still trying to get over Spike. That's not possible if they're living under the same roof.
she tells her friends it's in order to get closer to the "thing that's playing us," and not about saving Spike.
What she tells her friends, and why she takes him in, are two different things. In any case, she tells them she's not doing it just to help him. Why? Because none of them are willing to cut her slack for that idea. And besides, she has to investigate "that thing" anyway.
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Especially this-
In both cases, where the attacker is wrong is that they (temporarily) cease to see the other person as an individual with rights and needs separate from theirs. They're both shocked at what they did afterwards. Which indicates that neither of them meant to hurt the other person to the extent that they did.
Question though. You say-
"he doesn't hurt her." (Which... yes, he has. But Buffy doesn't hold that against him. Why? Because he doesn't know any better. And she acknowledges that.
You think she is aware that he doesn't know better than to hurt her? Where do you see this? The "stupid scheme" part of the AYW speech?
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believes he doesn't hurt her intentionally (which he doesn't).
WE SHOULD TOTALLY BE FRIENDS.
OH WAIT.
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I don't see how holding the eggs for getting money for her (and I don't think he was the Doctor. See here: http://theohara.livejournal.com/162286.html), would hurt her.
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for getting money for her
Even if he was the Doctor, there's no clear evidence that was his aim.
If we assume he actually was the Doctor, then him doing those things would be hurtful to her because she (unfairly) holds him to higher expectations. Which Buffy acknowledges is unfair.
But that's not what I was referring to anyway. The main way Spike hurts her in S6 is by feeding her self-loathing to get her to stay with him. (Particularly in "Dead Things.") He doesn't do it maliciously though (which is why Buffy is willing to agree that he doesn't hurt her).
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