Thank you. I still can't believe it happened; at the LGBTC of all places, which is all about not hurting anyone and being sensitive to others' needs and being a "safe zone". I only recently snapped out of this horrible cycle of crying recently, after two long conversations with my father and my sister. And it's not that it happened to me, it's that it happened, period. Usually I don't like to write about my personal problems but this is really important, because it's such a perfect example of something terrible which could have been easily avoided.
Do no harm. I don't believe it. How hard can it be?
This is a subject I have a long and painful history with. Holocaust humour is... problematic for me, to say the least. I sincerely believe in Shaw's statement: "Life doesn't stop being funny when somebody dies, nor does it stop being sad when somebody laughs". And nothing should be exempt from humour and mockery, which are tools of healing and criticism as much as anything. But I've learned to accept that true as that statement may be, I personally cannot bear Holocaust humour. It isn't funny to me. I detest it. So other people can crack jokes if it makes them feel better; I myself cannot bear it.
Holocaust references are becoming more and more commonplace, though, and not in a good way. The million posters of Obama as Hitler show a fundamental ignorance of history and revolting disrespect for the subject at hand. Not too long ago Eli Wiesel, a Holocaust survivor, was called a "Zio-Nazi" by one of Ahmadinijad's men during an international conference. Shimon Peres, Israel's president and someone who has without a doubt dedicated his
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OH MY GOD BB. I'm so sorry. I have actually seen that humor much, much more heavily displayed by bleeding heart liberals than by anyone else. It's... sort of a feature of the vie boheme in Tel Aviv, in my limited experience. I'm so sorry that happened. *HUGS* BB DON'T CRY. >_< you're awesome and I'm so, so sorry that happened.
It's not TLV, it's Haifa. It's my gang. I like these people; love them even, and I would've sworn up and down something like that would never happen among them. Until last night. Obviously I was wrong.
Thank you. I'm not taking it personally, that's not the point; the point is that is happened, and nobody stopped it, and it really really shouldn't have-not because I was offended, but because it's not something that should ever be done. And the fact it did says something about these people; I don't really want to think what exactly. I wish I could undo it; all I want is to like them and hang out with them and now this is like a black mark on our relationship.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't personally mind those jokes and on occasion I enjoy them. I'd never do what these kids did in that specific setting, but I'm talking about the general attitude. I fully and totally respect people who are super offended by it, but I also don't feel like I have the right to tell other people what's right/wrong in these circumstances. I could go on about why this specifically, in Israel, is not, to me, a case of "~offensive~ humor just means you're a jerkoff" but I won't because WTF you're upset and this is not about that.
But I'm just saying, for the sake of full disclosure, because I know you feel strongly about this and I don't want to be dishonest, that while I repspect your feelings/opinions on this, I see the issue differently. I would never do anything to offend you or even bring it up in a context I know you disapprove of, obviously, but I feel like I should let you know now so you can make your own judgments/decisions about me if you choose to.
First of all, thank you for considering my feelings. This is a painful subject for me and I appreciate your acknowledging that. Still, it's important for me to talk about this incident.
I fully and totally respect people who are super offended by it, but I also don't feel like I have the right to tell other people what's right/wrong in these circumstances.
I'm not dismissing behaviours which are different from my own-I think it's a complex subject and different people have different ways of dealing with it. We talked about this a lot before the trip to Poland, actually; some people mourn, and other people make Jew-soap jokes, and that's fine. I still cringe when I hear a Holocaust joke, but I've learned to deal with it a bit more gracefully. Nowadays I ask people to warn me before they crack one, and I just put my hands over my ears or walk away for a bit.
But this isn't about laughing or not laughing at Holocaust jokes. That doesn't say anything about you or anyone. It's about not thinking before you act, it's about being
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Listen, liberals especially make jokes about Hitler all the time. It's a way to deal with something horrible that's happened, and it's hard to deal with it in the first place. I don't think they ment to be insensitive and I'm sure they didn't mean to hurt your feelings, I'm guessing they didn't know it would affect you like it did.
My phone has been turned off all day, that's why I've not been answering calls. Thank you for trying though.
The point is not that it affected me the way it did, or that I was hurt by it-these are the symptoms of a root cause. That cause is: they did something which should not have been done. I don't think it's acceptable to make Holocaust jokes in public, ever. You never know who might be standing next to you, and if there's one thing you don't take risks with, it's that.
This is more than a joke; it's worse. Like I said below, in my family comparing someone to Hitler is like saying "this person should be murdered for the sake of humanity". There is no softer alternative. The fact someone did that, and-more to the point-the fact everyone else let him and nobody thought about the potential consequences of such an action, is pretty horrific to me. I honestly expected them to be more sensitive.
You don't need to be evil to cause evil. You just need to be thoughtless.
I get that this is a topic you're sensitive to, and I get why you're distraught. Everyone have their own things they're sensitive to; for example, when people around me make jokes about rape I get pissed off and upset
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I honestly don't know. I just-I cannot imagine what they were thinking. It is so incredibly different from how I would act if I saw the same thing happen to someone else; I simply cannot understand how they could let it happen.
Maybe this game means something else where you live, but here when we play it we never say you actually are like the person whose name you have on your forehead. It's just a fictional identity and though it's kind of lame to use someone as badly connoted as Hitler, it would have been an overreaction to take it personnally. Then again, maybe it means something different for you guys. In which case, I might think (I really don't know anything about your friends or you, I'm really sorry for talking about stuff I don't know) they only meant you had a dictatorial edge to your personality... probably nothing more, even though once again they could have found a better character. That really sucked, but I wouldn't say it was terrible.
That's just my opinion, and I am an outsider, so I very well know I might be totally missing the point, and if that's the case, I apologize.
Okay, I know you don't mean to be insensitive, which first of all means a lot. Secondly: yes, you are missing the point.
The point is not that I'm taking it personally (I'm not), or that it was aimed at me. The point is not that they perhaps did or did not compare me to Hitler-although in my mind that is an unspeakably horrific thing; to quote my father, "a call to murder". People like Hitler should be killed for the sake of humanity. To me, saying someone is like Hitler is tantamount to saying "he should be murdered". But that's not the point.
The point is that it happened at all. There are some things which should not be done, especially not in an environment purely dedicated to compassion, understanding, and safety. I know, with absolute certainty, that I would never in my life have let this happen to someone else. Not because I'm super-sensitive, but because there are some things which you just don't do.
You said: That really sucked, but I wouldn't say it was terrible. In my mind, there is nothing more terrible in this context
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I would like to emphasize my point. The comment above was the first response I wrote to any comment in this post; I was still very distraught and emotionally wiped out. A lot of that distress is expressed in the comment.
But my point isn't whether the members of the group did or did not joke about the Holocaust. Sure, I find it abhorrent, but some people use humour to deal with this difficult topic and I respect that. The point is that they were not sensitive and aware enough to consider I'd be hurt by it, or that it would be so incredibly painful to me as it was; they didn't think to refrain from this act even though it could have been easily avoided. People I've talked to have called it "really tactless", but I think it's more than that: it's thoughtless and inconsiderate. It's stupid. It's harmful.
The rest is all my private emotions coming to the fore. I feel very strongly about this topic. I realize you may not feel the same, and I accept that; I hope you accept my own sensitivity about this subject as well.
Alright. I understand how you feel about it. I realize I don't live in the same context as you do, so I wouldn't have felt as shocked or horrified as you did (even though maybe I should), just amazed at their lack of tact and thoughtfulness. I guess I just don't think the fictional character as awful as the deeds themselves.
I'll leave it at that, and you have all my sympathy for your distress.
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Do no harm. I don't believe it. How hard can it be?
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Holocaust references are becoming more and more commonplace, though, and not in a good way. The million posters of Obama as Hitler show a fundamental ignorance of history and revolting disrespect for the subject at hand. Not too long ago Eli Wiesel, a Holocaust survivor, was called a "Zio-Nazi" by one of Ahmadinijad's men during an international conference. Shimon Peres, Israel's president and someone who has without a doubt dedicated his ( ... )
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Thank you. I'm not taking it personally, that's not the point; the point is that is happened, and nobody stopped it, and it really really shouldn't have-not because I was offended, but because it's not something that should ever be done. And the fact it did says something about these people; I don't really want to think what exactly. I wish I could undo it; all I want is to like them and hang out with them and now this is like a black mark on our relationship.
Reply
But I'm just saying, for the sake of full disclosure, because I know you feel strongly about this and I don't want to be dishonest, that while I repspect your feelings/opinions on this, I see the issue differently. I would never do anything to offend you or even bring it up in a context I know you disapprove of, obviously, but I feel like I should let you know now so you can make your own judgments/decisions about me if you choose to.
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I fully and totally respect people who are super offended by it, but I also don't feel like I have the right to tell other people what's right/wrong in these circumstances.
I'm not dismissing behaviours which are different from my own-I think it's a complex subject and different people have different ways of dealing with it. We talked about this a lot before the trip to Poland, actually; some people mourn, and other people make Jew-soap jokes, and that's fine. I still cringe when I hear a Holocaust joke, but I've learned to deal with it a bit more gracefully. Nowadays I ask people to warn me before they crack one, and I just put my hands over my ears or walk away for a bit.
But this isn't about laughing or not laughing at Holocaust jokes. That doesn't say anything about you or anyone. It's about not thinking before you act, it's about being ( ... )
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Listen, liberals especially make jokes about Hitler all the time. It's a way to deal with something horrible that's happened, and it's hard to deal with it in the first place. I don't think they ment to be insensitive and I'm sure they didn't mean to hurt your feelings, I'm guessing they didn't know it would affect you like it did.
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The point is not that it affected me the way it did, or that I was hurt by it-these are the symptoms of a root cause. That cause is: they did something which should not have been done. I don't think it's acceptable to make Holocaust jokes in public, ever. You never know who might be standing next to you, and if there's one thing you don't take risks with, it's that.
This is more than a joke; it's worse. Like I said below, in my family comparing someone to Hitler is like saying "this person should be murdered for the sake of humanity". There is no softer alternative. The fact someone did that, and-more to the point-the fact everyone else let him and nobody thought about the potential consequences of such an action, is pretty horrific to me. I honestly expected them to be more sensitive.
You don't need to be evil to cause evil. You just need to be thoughtless.
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I just. I honestly don't know. I just don't know.
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Then again, maybe it means something different for you guys. In which case, I might think (I really don't know anything about your friends or you, I'm really sorry for talking about stuff I don't know) they only meant you had a dictatorial edge to your personality... probably nothing more, even though once again they could have found a better character. That really sucked, but I wouldn't say it was terrible.
That's just my opinion, and I am an outsider, so I very well know I might be totally missing the point, and if that's the case, I apologize.
Reply
The point is not that I'm taking it personally (I'm not), or that it was aimed at me. The point is not that they perhaps did or did not compare me to Hitler-although in my mind that is an unspeakably horrific thing; to quote my father, "a call to murder". People like Hitler should be killed for the sake of humanity. To me, saying someone is like Hitler is tantamount to saying "he should be murdered". But that's not the point.
The point is that it happened at all. There are some things which should not be done, especially not in an environment purely dedicated to compassion, understanding, and safety. I know, with absolute certainty, that I would never in my life have let this happen to someone else. Not because I'm super-sensitive, but because there are some things which you just don't do.
You said: That really sucked, but I wouldn't say it was terrible. In my mind, there is nothing more terrible in this context ( ... )
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But my point isn't whether the members of the group did or did not joke about the Holocaust. Sure, I find it abhorrent, but some people use humour to deal with this difficult topic and I respect that. The point is that they were not sensitive and aware enough to consider I'd be hurt by it, or that it would be so incredibly painful to me as it was; they didn't think to refrain from this act even though it could have been easily avoided. People I've talked to have called it "really tactless", but I think it's more than that: it's thoughtless and inconsiderate. It's stupid. It's harmful.
The rest is all my private emotions coming to the fore. I feel very strongly about this topic. I realize you may not feel the same, and I accept that; I hope you accept my own sensitivity about this subject as well.
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I guess I just don't think the fictional character as awful as the deeds themselves.
I'll leave it at that, and you have all my sympathy for your distress.
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