Listen, liberals especially make jokes about Hitler all the time. It's a way to deal with something horrible that's happened, and it's hard to deal with it in the first place. I don't think they ment to be insensitive and I'm sure they didn't mean to hurt your feelings, I'm guessing they didn't know it would affect you like it did.
My phone has been turned off all day, that's why I've not been answering calls. Thank you for trying though.
The point is not that it affected me the way it did, or that I was hurt by it-these are the symptoms of a root cause. That cause is: they did something which should not have been done. I don't think it's acceptable to make Holocaust jokes in public, ever. You never know who might be standing next to you, and if there's one thing you don't take risks with, it's that.
This is more than a joke; it's worse. Like I said below, in my family comparing someone to Hitler is like saying "this person should be murdered for the sake of humanity". There is no softer alternative. The fact someone did that, and-more to the point-the fact everyone else let him and nobody thought about the potential consequences of such an action, is pretty horrific to me. I honestly expected them to be more sensitive.
You don't need to be evil to cause evil. You just need to be thoughtless.
I get that this is a topic you're sensitive to, and I get why you're distraught. Everyone have their own things they're sensitive to; for example, when people around me make jokes about rape I get pissed off and upset
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Wait, I phrased something wrong and I don't want you to take it the wrong way, because they way I said that is insensitive: obviously, if you could not be offended by it, if you could just let it slide and not be hurt, you would, because no one wants to get hurt. What I mean is, I think you'll have to work on yourself in that aspect because it really can't be the last time you'll come across people joking about it. All my friends are bleeding hearts liberals, most of my friends are grandchildren of survivors, and most of them make jokes about it, while all of them are okay with jokes about it. It's really not about being sensitive or insensitive - I consider myself an extremely sensitive person and I'm okay with those kinds of jokes and occasionally say things you might find hurtful. It's just...dealing, I guess? I would never make them loudly or around older people, but that's as far as I go. Especially in Israel, only in Israel people feel they "have the right" to make those jokes. I'm so sorry you're hurt, sweetheart. I never want
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Quoting myself again because I can barely see straight anymore I'm so tired. This comment (to sabrina_il's response, which ironically is very similar to yours) basically sums up what I have to say on the subject. But to be more precise: I have never endorsed Holocaust jokes; I simply can't bring myself to do it. I've managed to train myself not to get up and walk away from a conversation when they're made - that took a good while - but I never laugh, I never smile. It's not funny to me. [...] Holocaust jokes in general aren't as bad as what happened yesterday, though, in my opinion. There's a big difference between cracking a joke about how many Jews can fit into a clown car and actually comparing someone to Hitler.
I could not find it funny if I tried. And believe me, I tried, at least until I got too disgusted with myself and let off. I said this upthread as well: I think most people in Israel are actually anesthetized to this sort of humour, because even if you grow up sensitive to it there is no way you can survive if you stay that way. So
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Okay, no, you're right. I thought the issue was Holocaust jokes - what they did is wrong, and childish and stupid. And I get why you're offended, I would be disgusted, too.
Still, as wrong and stupid as it is, they would never do that if they'd knew you'd react the way you did.
It was צין. I don't know if you remember/met him, I'm not sure; he's average height, מזרחי, with dark hair and eyes. He's... prickly. He has lots of unpopular opinions and has no problem being blunt or plain rude with people, but, idk. I just figured it takes all sorts and what the hell; I got along just fine with him. Now... not so sure. I think if he doesn't apologize next time I talk to him, I'm calling it quits. Which sucks. I kind of liked the guy; he was not my favourite but he was okay, still. And the דוש is not a place where I want to deal with making enemies.
On the upside, Asaf called me today (the blond one, with the glasses? he's the birthday boy who ran out after me). He called to check up and apologize again; we had a long talk and he was amazing. If there's one good thing I'm taking out of this it is this boy.
Is צין the one who picked on me when I was at the דוש? I'm not sure it's him, but I do remember talking to a guy name צין in the smoking corner, and not liking him. Plus, what the hell is with him, saying he's not sorry? Admittedly, I don't know him, but he comes off as an asshole.
No, that was John; he came in about twenty minutes before I left and joined the game promptly, but he wasn't present for most of the evening. I don't really think you've met the guy who did it, because last time we hung up with the older folks while he is young, about my age.
I sincerely believe in Shaw's statement: "Life doesn't stop being funny when somebody dies, nor does it stop being sad when somebody laughs". And nothing should be exempt from humour and mockery, which are tools of healing and criticism as much as anything. But I've learned to accept that true as that statement may be, I personally cannot bear Holocaust humour.
and But my point isn't whether the members of the group did or did not joke about the Holocaust. Sure, I find it abhorrent, but some people use humour to deal with this difficult topic and I respect that. The point is that they were not sensitive and aware enough to consider I'd be hurt by it, or that it would be so incredibly painful to me as it was; they didn't think to refrain from this act even though it could have been easily avoided. So: yes, humour is absolutely a legitimate way to cope with stuff like this, I agree and encourage people to use humour and so on. I wish I could do it, I really do. It was something I dealt with
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I'm sorry, part of me agrees with you and is saying "wow, she's right, maybe you should be more sensitive and not say those things so lightly" but another part of me simply disagrees. I think there are very few people at our age group that would react so badly to a holocaust joke. I, personally, never came across anyone who was upset at such a joke. I really don't think they had a way to know that you'd react that way; you think it should be obvious, but I really don't think it's as obviously a subject you need to be careful about as you think it is. Maybe you should warn people in the future, to avoid that kind of thing from happening. (better be smart then right, I think, even if you are right).
I'm so sensitive about the subject that I have nightmares to this day from informative movies I watched ביום הזיכרון לשואה ולגבורה when I was a kid, and whenever an older relative talks about the Holocaust I would leave the room in tears right away, and I don't react badly to jokes. Maybe it's better to inform people in advance then trust
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I agree with you re: jokes and such; it isn't feasible to be so deeply offended by something so common. But we resolved this upthread so I'm not getting into detail, just saying, I have learned to deal with jokes more or less, though I don't like them; I either warn people or just grimace and suck it up. What happened last night? Not the same thing at all.
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Listen, liberals especially make jokes about Hitler all the time. It's a way to deal with something horrible that's happened, and it's hard to deal with it in the first place. I don't think they ment to be insensitive and I'm sure they didn't mean to hurt your feelings, I'm guessing they didn't know it would affect you like it did.
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The point is not that it affected me the way it did, or that I was hurt by it-these are the symptoms of a root cause. That cause is: they did something which should not have been done. I don't think it's acceptable to make Holocaust jokes in public, ever. You never know who might be standing next to you, and if there's one thing you don't take risks with, it's that.
This is more than a joke; it's worse. Like I said below, in my family comparing someone to Hitler is like saying "this person should be murdered for the sake of humanity". There is no softer alternative. The fact someone did that, and-more to the point-the fact everyone else let him and nobody thought about the potential consequences of such an action, is pretty horrific to me. I honestly expected them to be more sensitive.
You don't need to be evil to cause evil. You just need to be thoughtless.
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I have never endorsed Holocaust jokes; I simply can't bring myself to do it. I've managed to train myself not to get up and walk away from a conversation when they're made - that took a good while - but I never laugh, I never smile. It's not funny to me. [...] Holocaust jokes in general aren't as bad as what happened yesterday, though, in my opinion. There's a big difference between cracking a joke about how many Jews can fit into a clown car and actually comparing someone to Hitler.
I could not find it funny if I tried. And believe me, I tried, at least until I got too disgusted with myself and let off. I said this upthread as well: I think most people in Israel are actually anesthetized to this sort of humour, because even if you grow up sensitive to it there is no way you can survive if you stay that way. So ( ... )
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Still, as wrong and stupid as it is, they would never do that if they'd knew you'd react the way you did.
Which one of the guys wrote it down?
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On the upside, Asaf called me today (the blond one, with the glasses? he's the birthday boy who ran out after me). He called to check up and apologize again; we had a long talk and he was amazing. If there's one good thing I'm taking out of this it is this boy.
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A point to Asaf, though.
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And, yes.
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I sincerely believe in Shaw's statement: "Life doesn't stop being funny when somebody dies, nor does it stop being sad when somebody laughs". And nothing should be exempt from humour and mockery, which are tools of healing and criticism as much as anything. But I've learned to accept that true as that statement may be, I personally cannot bear Holocaust humour.
and
But my point isn't whether the members of the group did or did not joke about the Holocaust. Sure, I find it abhorrent, but some people use humour to deal with this difficult topic and I respect that. The point is that they were not sensitive and aware enough to consider I'd be hurt by it, or that it would be so incredibly painful to me as it was; they didn't think to refrain from this act even though it could have been easily avoided.
So: yes, humour is absolutely a legitimate way to cope with stuff like this, I agree and encourage people to use humour and so on. I wish I could do it, I really do. It was something I dealt with ( ... )
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I'm so sensitive about the subject that I have nightmares to this day from informative movies I watched ביום הזיכרון לשואה ולגבורה when I was a kid, and whenever an older relative talks about the Holocaust I would leave the room in tears right away, and I don't react badly to jokes. Maybe it's better to inform people in advance then trust ( ... )
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I love you.
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I love you, girl, so much.
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