OH MY GOD BB. I'm so sorry. I have actually seen that humor much, much more heavily displayed by bleeding heart liberals than by anyone else. It's... sort of a feature of the vie boheme in Tel Aviv, in my limited experience. I'm so sorry that happened. *HUGS* BB DON'T CRY. >_< you're awesome and I'm so, so sorry that happened.
It's not TLV, it's Haifa. It's my gang. I like these people; love them even, and I would've sworn up and down something like that would never happen among them. Until last night. Obviously I was wrong.
Thank you. I'm not taking it personally, that's not the point; the point is that is happened, and nobody stopped it, and it really really shouldn't have-not because I was offended, but because it's not something that should ever be done. And the fact it did says something about these people; I don't really want to think what exactly. I wish I could undo it; all I want is to like them and hang out with them and now this is like a black mark on our relationship.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't personally mind those jokes and on occasion I enjoy them. I'd never do what these kids did in that specific setting, but I'm talking about the general attitude. I fully and totally respect people who are super offended by it, but I also don't feel like I have the right to tell other people what's right/wrong in these circumstances. I could go on about why this specifically, in Israel, is not, to me, a case of "~offensive~ humor just means you're a jerkoff" but I won't because WTF you're upset and this is not about that.
But I'm just saying, for the sake of full disclosure, because I know you feel strongly about this and I don't want to be dishonest, that while I repspect your feelings/opinions on this, I see the issue differently. I would never do anything to offend you or even bring it up in a context I know you disapprove of, obviously, but I feel like I should let you know now so you can make your own judgments/decisions about me if you choose to.
First of all, thank you for considering my feelings. This is a painful subject for me and I appreciate your acknowledging that. Still, it's important for me to talk about this incident.
I fully and totally respect people who are super offended by it, but I also don't feel like I have the right to tell other people what's right/wrong in these circumstances.
I'm not dismissing behaviours which are different from my own-I think it's a complex subject and different people have different ways of dealing with it. We talked about this a lot before the trip to Poland, actually; some people mourn, and other people make Jew-soap jokes, and that's fine. I still cringe when I hear a Holocaust joke, but I've learned to deal with it a bit more gracefully. Nowadays I ask people to warn me before they crack one, and I just put my hands over my ears or walk away for a bit.
But this isn't about laughing or not laughing at Holocaust jokes. That doesn't say anything about you or anyone. It's about not thinking before you act, it's about being
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But, if it's not about laughing at holocaust jokes, and no one could have known you'd take it badly, where does "being sensitive" come in? I'm honestly confused. Should they have warned you or probed to see if you were OK with that kind of stuff? If they had no reason to think you'd take it badly and you weren't giving them any signs (since you weren't certain that they'd done what they'd done)... how should they have behaved?
Should they have warned you or probed to see if you were OK with that kind of stuff?
Flat-out: yes. This is not the stuff you take chances with. That's what I'm talking about. Being sensitive isn't preemptively guessing people's danger zones, it's being aware of the possibility that they might not interpret things the same way you do, and they might be hurt, then acting accordingly. This is what I mean about not cracking Holocaust jokes in public. The chances of someone around you being deeply hurt-not just offended, but hurt-by that are more than likely, and, again, this is one subject you don't play around with.
If they had no reason to think you'd take it badly and you weren't giving them any signsAnd again: Yes they did have reason to think I'd take it badly. Why? Because this is a subject people are likely to take badly. Not everyone, but some, a lot even, and in that case you don't take chances. People who are traumatized by snails are pretty rare, so it's reasonable to expect them to warn others if they want their "danger
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Oh wow, that's not at all been my experience with Israelis. I'm totally taking this under advisement though. I mean I come from an entirely different mindset which is again, irrelevant here, but in my time with native Israelis, in the IDF, during the year I was working, and 2+ years of Uni I've always seen people in their 20s, liberal, educated, committed, crack these kinds of jokes openly and never bother to even probe for people being offended first. I've certainly never met anyone who was offended by that. I've certainly never met anyone who thought someone being offended was likely. Like, my commanders in the army used to crack those jokes openly pretty constantly. Yesterday I was at מיונים for a public diplomacy program co sponsored by the ministry of foreign affairs and the head guy, as he was doing the briefing for us בוחנים made holocaust jokes from the podium
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The widespread penchant for cracking Holocaust jokes is something very problematic for me; I personally see it as a sign of the Israeli public's general insensitivity and apathy, which is sadly a very real phenomenon, than anything that's actually legitimate. I think lots of people may be uncomfortable with jokes like that but learn very quickly to cover up that feeling, because if you're sensitive to that kind of stuff and don't anesthetize yourself, you're dead meat.
I'm a bad case: I am that sensitive, and I can't anesthetize myself. I am literally incapable of taking the Holocaust lightly. I just can't do it. So it hurts me every time, and I cry every time, and I feel inadequate for not crying enough. Every time. I am the dead meat
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I don't really know what third generation means; all 7 of my grandparents are survivors, and so were the grandparents of more or less everyone I knew growing up (it was either holocaust, frontlines of WWII or both, there was no third option). But I'm not familiar with that terminology
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So do I. Two years ago I volunteered at "Flower for a Survivor" (פרח לניצול), an organization devoted to helping Holocaust survivors, and every week I visited a woman who would sit and stare at soap operas on the TV and tell me, in an impassive voice, about life in Auschwitz. Sometimes she'd cry, but lots of times she cracked jokes. Quoting myself from upthread:
I sincerely believe in Shaw's statement: "Life doesn't stop being funny when somebody dies, nor does it stop being sad when somebody laughs". And nothing should be exempt from humour and mockery, which are tools of healing and criticism as much as anything. But I've learned to accept that true as that statement may be, I personally cannot bear Holocaust humour.
Humor has a certain power, to me. The power to say, this no longer controls me.
I understand and respect that reasoning, but I personally don't feel that way. Firstly because it does make me cry, it does still control me in a
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I just realized I didn't talk to you about cracking Holocaust jokes in public; it was in response to another comment here. Sorry for the confusion; I've been talking to people about this all day and the crying isn't helping anything.
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Thank you. I'm not taking it personally, that's not the point; the point is that is happened, and nobody stopped it, and it really really shouldn't have-not because I was offended, but because it's not something that should ever be done. And the fact it did says something about these people; I don't really want to think what exactly. I wish I could undo it; all I want is to like them and hang out with them and now this is like a black mark on our relationship.
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But I'm just saying, for the sake of full disclosure, because I know you feel strongly about this and I don't want to be dishonest, that while I repspect your feelings/opinions on this, I see the issue differently. I would never do anything to offend you or even bring it up in a context I know you disapprove of, obviously, but I feel like I should let you know now so you can make your own judgments/decisions about me if you choose to.
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I fully and totally respect people who are super offended by it, but I also don't feel like I have the right to tell other people what's right/wrong in these circumstances.
I'm not dismissing behaviours which are different from my own-I think it's a complex subject and different people have different ways of dealing with it. We talked about this a lot before the trip to Poland, actually; some people mourn, and other people make Jew-soap jokes, and that's fine. I still cringe when I hear a Holocaust joke, but I've learned to deal with it a bit more gracefully. Nowadays I ask people to warn me before they crack one, and I just put my hands over my ears or walk away for a bit.
But this isn't about laughing or not laughing at Holocaust jokes. That doesn't say anything about you or anyone. It's about not thinking before you act, it's about being ( ... )
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Flat-out: yes. This is not the stuff you take chances with. That's what I'm talking about. Being sensitive isn't preemptively guessing people's danger zones, it's being aware of the possibility that they might not interpret things the same way you do, and they might be hurt, then acting accordingly. This is what I mean about not cracking Holocaust jokes in public. The chances of someone around you being deeply hurt-not just offended, but hurt-by that are more than likely, and, again, this is one subject you don't play around with.
If they had no reason to think you'd take it badly and you weren't giving them any signsAnd again: Yes they did have reason to think I'd take it badly. Why? Because this is a subject people are likely to take badly. Not everyone, but some, a lot even, and in that case you don't take chances. People who are traumatized by snails are pretty rare, so it's reasonable to expect them to warn others if they want their "danger ( ... )
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I'm a bad case: I am that sensitive, and I can't anesthetize myself. I am literally incapable of taking the Holocaust lightly. I just can't do it. So it hurts me every time, and I cry every time, and I feel inadequate for not crying enough. Every time. I am the dead meat ( ... )
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I do think there's a legitimacy to the humor
So do I. Two years ago I volunteered at "Flower for a Survivor" (פרח לניצול), an organization devoted to helping Holocaust survivors, and every week I visited a woman who would sit and stare at soap operas on the TV and tell me, in an impassive voice, about life in Auschwitz. Sometimes she'd cry, but lots of times she cracked jokes. Quoting myself from upthread:
I sincerely believe in Shaw's statement: "Life doesn't stop being funny when somebody dies, nor does it stop being sad when somebody laughs". And nothing should be exempt from humour and mockery, which are tools of healing and criticism as much as anything. But I've learned to accept that true as that statement may be, I personally cannot bear Holocaust humour.
Humor has a certain power, to me. The power to say, this no longer controls me.
I understand and respect that reasoning, but I personally don't feel that way. Firstly because it does make me cry, it does still control me in a ( ... )
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