There is no physical reason that Hispanics, Indo-Asians, Arabs, or African-Americans who are born here in America cannot speak proper English.
Especially having taught my share of these sorts of folks in graduate school, you've hit the nail on the head (again!). But overall, I agree with what your message is in this entry -- moreover, I think you've put in words how I really feel about this particular subject matter. Schooling should not be solely to blame for those individuals who choose to display their ignorance and "coolness" over their education (perhaps you should add to your coolness entries something about lack of grammar). It's really quite sad.
Now the real question is, what do we do...?Honestly, I don't know if there is much that can be done. With the politics in this country leaning for acceptance of foreign folks not speaking proper English -- so much so as to encourage bilingual education so that Spanish speakers can learn in our American schools without having to learn America's dominant language, English -- it seems
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First, the teacher could request that the parents help the boy at home by having him converse in English.I'm sorry, but I would be extremely offended if I sent my child to pubic school and at a parent-teacher conference the teacher told me that my son, although he has a command of Christmas, does not understand the importance of Kwaanza. So her suggestion is that I stop celebrating Christmas, quit making references to God in the home, and teach Kwaanza as much as I can. Please! I don't think I would be out of my rights to be totally offended by this suggestion and appalled at the insensitivity of the teacher. Why would it be any less offensive to suggest ripping someone's culture and language out of their home
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Why would it be any less offensive to suggest ripping someone's culture and language out of their home?
I'm not suggesting that the parents rip their culture out of their home. What I am proposing is that the teacher ask (and mind you I said that the teacher request, not demand) that the parents set aside perhaps an hour out of their evening at home (which if you put the child as being at home and with their parents for 6 hours, isn't a large amount of time) to practice conversing in English with the boy. And more specifically, work with the boy on the assignments they might have assigned them. For example, let's say that the boy is learning how to count money. What the parents could do is -- speaking in English -- play banker with the boy, and ask him to count certain amounts of money and tell them how much money is on the table or in their hands. Or ask him to do simple arithmetic using money, so that the boy can practice his math skills, while improving his English.
Heck, the Amish do it all the time. They speak German in the
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practice conversing in English with the boy. Except that some of them (maybe many of them) don't speak English themselves, so this would be quite difficult. Also, I would still be offended if a teacher asked me to do this. Just like I would be offended if someone asked me to set aside my Christianity for an hour and teach my child Hinduism and only Hinduism without bringing any of my Christian culture into it. I understand your point, and I agree that that would be the ideal situation, but I also believe that this would have to be a self-motivated move; a teacher's request would come across as culturally insensitive no matter how or under what spirit it was done.
and do not revert to using Yiddish (or some other form of a German-English hybrid dialect) when trying to converse with those who are not members of the Amish community. They speak Deutch (or Pennsylvania Dutch), not Yiddish (that is a Jewish-English hybrid). And actually, yes they do revert. In fact, they are extremely elitist in that sense that they will speak Deutch
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I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 4 2006, 18:39:33 UTC
Just like I would be offended if someone asked me to set aside my Christianity for an hour and teach my child Hinduism and only Hinduism without bringing any of my Christian culture into it.I'd be very angered myself if such a comment was asked of me by a teacher mostly because freedom of religion clause in the first Amendment. I guess for me, I see a teacher asking a parent to help their student's English (if they are able) is just as legitimate of a request of a teacher to ask a parent as a teacher asking any parent to read to their child to help stimulate their brains and to help them learn. But everyone has their own tolerance levels for different things. Your point about parents getting upset is a real concern, especially since you and I know that most of the parents might not know any English -- something I was considering putting into my example above, but decided against
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Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Ila_vita_nuovaAugust 4 2006, 18:51:26 UTC
"I'd be very angered myself if such a comment was asked of me by a teacher mostly because freedom of religion clause in the first Amendment."
The right to speak one's native language is also covered by the 1st Amendment. For some people, if they're not very religious, or even if they are, their native language might be just as important to them as their right to freedom of religion.
Besides, it's not as though the English language doesn't contain words from other languages.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 4 2006, 20:21:23 UTC
*Points to icon* I do realize that English does have words from other languages, like German, Italian, Latin, Greek and a some French and Spanish as well.
Religion and language aside, the point is how is it wrong for a teacher to request that a parent take an active role in their child's education? I ask my undergraduates to take an active effort in doing their reports, and to seek help when they need it. If they fail, that is of their own cause, not mine. Yet, you cannot hold that same standard to small children just beginning the process of their 18 year education.
Surely some parents (like my own and lhynard go beyond the call of duty and take the time and effort to educate their children solely (i.e., homeschool). I understand that many parents don't have the time, skills or the financial ability to do homeschool full-time. But that does not excuse the parents from negating all of their child's education to their school teachers. For as much as most teachers would love to help out each individual child all the time, you and I realize
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Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IizaaksmomAugust 4 2006, 20:48:27 UTC
I still think that you are disregarding that such a request would be offensive. Also, although it was address, some of these kids pass their parents in schooled education in the third grade (or before). Many of their parents are illiterate. What do you do then? I agree that the teachers can't do it all. That's why I'm suprised that the government has not created some program for this problem. Heck, they create a program for just about everything else :)
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IlhynardAugust 4 2006, 22:19:42 UTC
Many of their parents are illiterate. So then, you also find it a fair conclusion that if people are in this country and cannot speak proper English that they are uneducated -- even in their own language....
I never said I though people who did not speak proper English were stupid; I said that most were uneducated.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IizaaksmomAugust 5 2006, 01:02:33 UTC
No, you missed my point. Statistically, many immigrants are illiterate. Many immigrants can't speak ANY English at all, let alone improperly. So to recommend that they teach their children in English is silly, 1) because they don't speak English and 2) because their child is already possibly more educated than they. I know many an educated person who chose to speak Ebonics (a lawyer friend of mine) within his own culture. My PhD friend from Kentucky deliberately chose to keep her accent. Some very educated people make cultural choices. I don't think you can always equate the two. Although they certainly correlate under many circumstances, Mr. Science man, you should know that correlation is not always indicitive of any conclusion.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 5 2006, 00:18:59 UTC
I still think that you are disregarding that such a request would be offensive.
If I was living in Italy (for example) and raising my children there, if I had a parent-teacher conference and my child's teacher asked me to talk to my children more in Italian than English, I would not be offended, and that for the good of my children I would oblige my teacher's request. (Taking a quick survey of the three other people in the room with me, there is agreement of everyone here that such a comment would not be deemed offensive to them). Thus, while I can see that some overly sensitive people might become offended, I think that a reasonable person who understands the value of learning another language for better survival and education would not be offended. Especially if the teacher is only addressing language and nothing else relating specifically to that person's native culture. That's just my personal take.
Many of their parents are illiterate. What do you do then? ... I agree that the teachers can't do it all. That's why I'm suprised
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Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IizaaksmomAugust 5 2006, 01:10:23 UTC
I would not be offended, and that for the good of my children I would oblige my teacher's request.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one (and I believe that it would very much depend on the circumstances and the approach of the teacher).
Actually, I am not at all surprised that the government hasn't done anything about this. You have some very good points :)
do you think that by educating the children of these more uneducated immigrants, you are actually helping the parents out by setting up a situation where the parents might have to learn some of the material that their children are learning? I think that this could be a possibility, and I am sure that it is the hope of educators who work in this (probably frustrating) field. However, it does also depend on cultural values. Some cultures feel the children should succeed further than the parents (Jewish, Asian cultures) other cultures feel that children should follow in their parents footsteps, even education-wise "I've worked in the factory my whole life, and that's
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Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 5 2006, 01:42:04 UTC
We will have to agree to disagree on this one
I'm willing to agree to that conclusion. :)
Some cultures feel the children should succeed further than the parents (Jewish, Asian cultures) other cultures feel that children should follow in their parents footsteps,
That is a very good point you bring up here. :) One that I am indeed aware of, but something I had forgotten in the context of our discussion here. Definitely something that is beyond the control of the government or the educational system.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Ila_vita_nuovaAugust 4 2006, 21:05:37 UTC
"Religion and language aside, the point is how is it wrong for a teacher to request that a parent take an active role in their child's education?"
Right, but we're not leaving language aside here. I agree parents should take a role in their childrens' education. But why do you assume they're not if they happen not to speak English? Perhaps they are helping their children with math assignments, or art, or music... Also, I don't think it would be right to penalize children for the things that their parents aren't able to teach them.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 5 2006, 01:01:44 UTC
But why do you assume they're not if they happen not to speak English?
Well, my assumptions related back to my initial example where I'm assigning the parents to be of a minimal educational level. One thought that also came to my mind just now is that while the parents might have knowledge about certain things relating to their specific culture, how might a parent effectively communicate specific ideas to their children if they themselves do not have any knowledge on the subject matter? Let's say they want their children to pass a citizenship test (because the child wasn't born in the US, but came over here at a young age), surely they would want their child to have the knowledge that they need in order to pass it. But without any knowledge of US history and civics, they are unable to be of assistance to their children.
Also, I don't think it would be right to penalize children for the things that their parents aren't able to teach them.A lack of initiative on the part of the parents is what penalizes the children, not necessarily
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Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IizaaksmomAugust 5 2006, 01:12:41 UTC
Most of these skills don't require a great level of education.
Some of them don't even have that level. Also, since they have no education, they often work two, three, four jobs. When do they have time to mess with children's toys? They have to put food on the table.
Especially having taught my share of these sorts of folks in graduate school, you've hit the nail on the head (again!). But overall, I agree with what your message is in this entry -- moreover, I think you've put in words how I really feel about this particular subject matter. Schooling should not be solely to blame for those individuals who choose to display their ignorance and "coolness" over their education (perhaps you should add to your coolness entries something about lack of grammar). It's really quite sad.
Now the real question is, what do we do...?Honestly, I don't know if there is much that can be done. With the politics in this country leaning for acceptance of foreign folks not speaking proper English -- so much so as to encourage bilingual education so that Spanish speakers can learn in our American schools without having to learn America's dominant language, English -- it seems ( ... )
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I'm not suggesting that the parents rip their culture out of their home. What I am proposing is that the teacher ask (and mind you I said that the teacher request, not demand) that the parents set aside perhaps an hour out of their evening at home (which if you put the child as being at home and with their parents for 6 hours, isn't a large amount of time) to practice conversing in English with the boy. And more specifically, work with the boy on the assignments they might have assigned them. For example, let's say that the boy is learning how to count money. What the parents could do is -- speaking in English -- play banker with the boy, and ask him to count certain amounts of money and tell them how much money is on the table or in their hands. Or ask him to do simple arithmetic using money, so that the boy can practice his math skills, while improving his English.
Heck, the Amish do it all the time. They speak German in the ( ... )
Reply
Except that some of them (maybe many of them) don't speak English themselves, so this would be quite difficult. Also, I would still be offended if a teacher asked me to do this. Just like I would be offended if someone asked me to set aside my Christianity for an hour and teach my child Hinduism and only Hinduism without bringing any of my Christian culture into it. I understand your point, and I agree that that would be the ideal situation, but I also believe that this would have to be a self-motivated move; a teacher's request would come across as culturally insensitive no matter how or under what spirit it was done.
and do not revert to using Yiddish (or some other form of a German-English hybrid dialect) when trying to converse with those who are not members of the Amish community. They speak Deutch (or Pennsylvania Dutch), not Yiddish (that is a Jewish-English hybrid). And actually, yes they do revert. In fact, they are extremely elitist in that sense that they will speak Deutch ( ... )
Reply
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The right to speak one's native language is also covered by the 1st Amendment. For some people, if they're not very religious, or even if they are, their native language might be just as important to them as their right to freedom of religion.
Besides, it's not as though the English language doesn't contain words from other languages.
Reply
Religion and language aside, the point is how is it wrong for a teacher to request that a parent take an active role in their child's education? I ask my undergraduates to take an active effort in doing their reports, and to seek help when they need it. If they fail, that is of their own cause, not mine. Yet, you cannot hold that same standard to small children just beginning the process of their 18 year education.
Surely some parents (like my own and lhynard go beyond the call of duty and take the time and effort to educate their children solely (i.e., homeschool). I understand that many parents don't have the time, skills or the financial ability to do homeschool full-time. But that does not excuse the parents from negating all of their child's education to their school teachers. For as much as most teachers would love to help out each individual child all the time, you and I realize ( ... )
Reply
Reply
So then, you also find it a fair conclusion that if people are in this country and cannot speak proper English that they are uneducated -- even in their own language....
I never said I though people who did not speak proper English were stupid; I said that most were uneducated.
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If I was living in Italy (for example) and raising my children there, if I had a parent-teacher conference and my child's teacher asked me to talk to my children more in Italian than English, I would not be offended, and that for the good of my children I would oblige my teacher's request. (Taking a quick survey of the three other people in the room with me, there is agreement of everyone here that such a comment would not be deemed offensive to them). Thus, while I can see that some overly sensitive people might become offended, I think that a reasonable person who understands the value of learning another language for better survival and education would not be offended. Especially if the teacher is only addressing language and nothing else relating specifically to that person's native culture. That's just my personal take.
Many of their parents are illiterate. What do you do then? ... I agree that the teachers can't do it all. That's why I'm suprised ( ... )
Reply
We will have to agree to disagree on this one (and I believe that it would very much depend on the circumstances and the approach of the teacher).
Actually, I am not at all surprised that the government hasn't done anything about this.
You have some very good points :)
do you think that by educating the children of these more uneducated immigrants, you are actually helping the parents out by setting up a situation where the parents might have to learn some of the material that their children are learning? I think that this could be a possibility, and I am sure that it is the hope of educators who work in this (probably frustrating) field. However, it does also depend on cultural values. Some cultures feel the children should succeed further than the parents (Jewish, Asian cultures) other cultures feel that children should follow in their parents footsteps, even education-wise "I've worked in the factory my whole life, and that's ( ... )
Reply
I'm willing to agree to that conclusion. :)
Some cultures feel the children should succeed further than the parents (Jewish, Asian cultures) other cultures feel that children should follow in their parents footsteps,
That is a very good point you bring up here. :) One that I am indeed aware of, but something I had forgotten in the context of our discussion here. Definitely something that is beyond the control of the government or the educational system.
Reply
Right, but we're not leaving language aside here. I agree parents should take a role in their childrens' education. But why do you assume they're not if they happen not to speak English? Perhaps they are helping their children with math assignments, or art, or music... Also, I don't think it would be right to penalize children for the things that their parents aren't able to teach them.
Reply
Well, my assumptions related back to my initial example where I'm assigning the parents to be of a minimal educational level. One thought that also came to my mind just now is that while the parents might have knowledge about certain things relating to their specific culture, how might a parent effectively communicate specific ideas to their children if they themselves do not have any knowledge on the subject matter? Let's say they want their children to pass a citizenship test (because the child wasn't born in the US, but came over here at a young age), surely they would want their child to have the knowledge that they need in order to pass it. But without any knowledge of US history and civics, they are unable to be of assistance to their children.
Also, I don't think it would be right to penalize children for the things that their parents aren't able to teach them.A lack of initiative on the part of the parents is what penalizes the children, not necessarily ( ... )
Reply
Some of them don't even have that level. Also, since they have no education, they often work two, three, four jobs. When do they have time to mess with children's toys? They have to put food on the table.
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