I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 4 2006, 18:39:33 UTC
Just like I would be offended if someone asked me to set aside my Christianity for an hour and teach my child Hinduism and only Hinduism without bringing any of my Christian culture into it.
I'd be very angered myself if such a comment was asked of me by a teacher mostly because freedom of religion clause in the first Amendment. I guess for me, I see a teacher asking a parent to help their student's English (if they are able) is just as legitimate of a request of a teacher to ask a parent as a teacher asking any parent to read to their child to help stimulate their brains and to help them learn. But everyone has their own tolerance levels for different things. Your point about parents getting upset is a real concern, especially since you and I know that most of the parents might not know any English -- something I was considering putting into my example above, but decided against.
I think my own discussion of the "boy in school" example side-tracked my initial point which I never fully vocialized. While politically speaking, there are many new manners by which children can grow up to be fully bilingual and more properly citizens in this country by learning the dominant language, it appears to me that like Southern racism, part of the barrier to success stems not from the schools themselves, but from the parents and other outside influences.
They speak Deutch (or Pennsylvania Dutch), not Yiddish (that is a Jewish-English hybrid).
Actually, Yiddish does incorporate German into some of the vocabulary (along with some other languages), which is why I thought of it when I was previously writing. But that's a minor detail. :)
In fact, they are extremely elitist in that sense that they will speak Deutch in front of you to one another to deliberately excuse themselves from the conversation...But the Amish are probably the least assimilated and most isolated people ever.
Actually, having lived with two Colombians for over a year now, and having previously lived with an Indian couple for over a year as well, I can safely say that the Amish aren't the only ones who will deliberately speak in their native tongue in front of you to avoid a conversation with you specifically. When you're the only person in a house where everyone else speaks in Spanish or Bengali all of the time, and rarely address you except when they need you for something, it can really wear down on your personal tolerance of such behavior. Not only that, they also tend to hang out with other members of the same community (be it Indian or Colombian) rather than associate with Americans. Although these communities tend to be smaller than the more apparent Mexican communities most people see.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Ila_vita_nuovaAugust 4 2006, 18:51:26 UTC
"I'd be very angered myself if such a comment was asked of me by a teacher mostly because freedom of religion clause in the first Amendment."
The right to speak one's native language is also covered by the 1st Amendment. For some people, if they're not very religious, or even if they are, their native language might be just as important to them as their right to freedom of religion.
Besides, it's not as though the English language doesn't contain words from other languages.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 4 2006, 20:21:23 UTC
*Points to icon* I do realize that English does have words from other languages, like German, Italian, Latin, Greek and a some French and Spanish as well.
Religion and language aside, the point is how is it wrong for a teacher to request that a parent take an active role in their child's education? I ask my undergraduates to take an active effort in doing their reports, and to seek help when they need it. If they fail, that is of their own cause, not mine. Yet, you cannot hold that same standard to small children just beginning the process of their 18 year education.
Surely some parents (like my own and lhynard go beyond the call of duty and take the time and effort to educate their children solely (i.e., homeschool). I understand that many parents don't have the time, skills or the financial ability to do homeschool full-time. But that does not excuse the parents from negating all of their child's education to their school teachers. For as much as most teachers would love to help out each individual child all the time, you and I realize that they cannot, in practice, do so. Thus, one manner in which a child's education can be furthered is through some level of home-education (e.g., having a parent help their student with homework or with school projects). Just reading to a child at night has shown time and again that it helps to improve a child's performance in school.
Teachers requesting that parents help teach their kids some math, or religion or English is only a symptom in the illness that is parents not actively engaging in/neglecting their children's education.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IizaaksmomAugust 4 2006, 20:48:27 UTC
I still think that you are disregarding that such a request would be offensive. Also, although it was address, some of these kids pass their parents in schooled education in the third grade (or before). Many of their parents are illiterate. What do you do then? I agree that the teachers can't do it all. That's why I'm suprised that the government has not created some program for this problem. Heck, they create a program for just about everything else :)
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IlhynardAugust 4 2006, 22:19:42 UTC
Many of their parents are illiterate. So then, you also find it a fair conclusion that if people are in this country and cannot speak proper English that they are uneducated -- even in their own language....
I never said I though people who did not speak proper English were stupid; I said that most were uneducated.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IizaaksmomAugust 5 2006, 01:02:33 UTC
No, you missed my point. Statistically, many immigrants are illiterate. Many immigrants can't speak ANY English at all, let alone improperly. So to recommend that they teach their children in English is silly, 1) because they don't speak English and 2) because their child is already possibly more educated than they. I know many an educated person who chose to speak Ebonics (a lawyer friend of mine) within his own culture. My PhD friend from Kentucky deliberately chose to keep her accent. Some very educated people make cultural choices. I don't think you can always equate the two. Although they certainly correlate under many circumstances, Mr. Science man, you should know that correlation is not always indicitive of any conclusion.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 5 2006, 00:18:59 UTC
I still think that you are disregarding that such a request would be offensive.
If I was living in Italy (for example) and raising my children there, if I had a parent-teacher conference and my child's teacher asked me to talk to my children more in Italian than English, I would not be offended, and that for the good of my children I would oblige my teacher's request. (Taking a quick survey of the three other people in the room with me, there is agreement of everyone here that such a comment would not be deemed offensive to them). Thus, while I can see that some overly sensitive people might become offended, I think that a reasonable person who understands the value of learning another language for better survival and education would not be offended. Especially if the teacher is only addressing language and nothing else relating specifically to that person's native culture. That's just my personal take.
Many of their parents are illiterate. What do you do then? ... I agree that the teachers can't do it all. That's why I'm suprised that the government has not created some program for this problem.
Actually, I am not at all surprised that the government hasn't done anything about this. Prejudice and racism amongst the general population used to be motivation enough for immigrants to learn English (more of the forced assimilation that you mentioned previously). With the adoption of more tolerance for uneducated immigrants in the workplace, the American workplace, and subsequently the more liberal policy makers have encouraged older immigrants to not pursue further education (as far I'm concerned).
Something else to consider (consider it a relevant tangent as suggested by my more politically oriented friend sitting beside me), do you think that by educating the children of these more uneducated immigrants, you are actually helping the parents out by setting up a situation where the parents might have to learn some of the material that their children are learning? Perhaps by having the children surpass the parents, there might be an incentive for the parents to also learn English and other things in general.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IizaaksmomAugust 5 2006, 01:10:23 UTC
I would not be offended, and that for the good of my children I would oblige my teacher's request.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one (and I believe that it would very much depend on the circumstances and the approach of the teacher).
Actually, I am not at all surprised that the government hasn't done anything about this. You have some very good points :)
do you think that by educating the children of these more uneducated immigrants, you are actually helping the parents out by setting up a situation where the parents might have to learn some of the material that their children are learning? I think that this could be a possibility, and I am sure that it is the hope of educators who work in this (probably frustrating) field. However, it does also depend on cultural values. Some cultures feel the children should succeed further than the parents (Jewish, Asian cultures) other cultures feel that children should follow in their parents footsteps, even education-wise "I've worked in the factory my whole life, and that's good enough for you" (Irish?) So I suppose it would only work if the parents see the point in betterment. So just don't hold that as a cultural value. Have you seen "Real Women Have Curves"? That's about a Spanish girl who wants to go to college. Her community thinks she is too uppity and should focus on getting a good husband. A very intersting film, written by someone within that community.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 5 2006, 01:42:04 UTC
We will have to agree to disagree on this one
I'm willing to agree to that conclusion. :)
Some cultures feel the children should succeed further than the parents (Jewish, Asian cultures) other cultures feel that children should follow in their parents footsteps,
That is a very good point you bring up here. :) One that I am indeed aware of, but something I had forgotten in the context of our discussion here. Definitely something that is beyond the control of the government or the educational system.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Ila_vita_nuovaAugust 4 2006, 21:05:37 UTC
"Religion and language aside, the point is how is it wrong for a teacher to request that a parent take an active role in their child's education?"
Right, but we're not leaving language aside here. I agree parents should take a role in their childrens' education. But why do you assume they're not if they happen not to speak English? Perhaps they are helping their children with math assignments, or art, or music... Also, I don't think it would be right to penalize children for the things that their parents aren't able to teach them.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 5 2006, 01:01:44 UTC
But why do you assume they're not if they happen not to speak English?
Well, my assumptions related back to my initial example where I'm assigning the parents to be of a minimal educational level. One thought that also came to my mind just now is that while the parents might have knowledge about certain things relating to their specific culture, how might a parent effectively communicate specific ideas to their children if they themselves do not have any knowledge on the subject matter? Let's say they want their children to pass a citizenship test (because the child wasn't born in the US, but came over here at a young age), surely they would want their child to have the knowledge that they need in order to pass it. But without any knowledge of US history and civics, they are unable to be of assistance to their children.
Also, I don't think it would be right to penalize children for the things that their parents aren't able to teach them.
A lack of initiative on the part of the parents is what penalizes the children, not necessarily the public. Furthermore, the subjects/activities I'm proposing that parents do to better educate their children are not complex. How difficult is it for a parent to read a children's story, or to play counting games with toys or to help them playing a recorder? Most of these skills don't require a great level of education.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IizaaksmomAugust 5 2006, 01:12:41 UTC
Most of these skills don't require a great level of education.
Some of them don't even have that level. Also, since they have no education, they often work two, three, four jobs. When do they have time to mess with children's toys? They have to put food on the table.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 5 2006, 01:30:29 UTC
That's true, and it goes back to what I was saying before. Because of the situation of these sorts of families, children are often left at a disadvantage with respect to education and more specifically to becoming more effectively bilingual.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IizaaksmomAugust 4 2006, 20:32:50 UTC
But that's a minor detail. :) Exactly :) (I just happen to be Pa Dutch myself, which is why I mentioned it...)
the Amish aren't the only ones who will deliberately speak in their native tongue in front of you to avoid a conversation with you specifically. I agree, as it's happened to me on more than one occassion with other language cultures as well.
Not only that, they also tend to hang out with other members of the same community (be it Indian or Colombian) rather than associate with Americans. I don't know if the people you spoke of were only here a short time or were trying to become citizens, but for the sake of the argument, let's say they were trying to establish a life here. Well, this is the crux of the discussion, in a sense, isn't it? SHOULD people of other races have to "hang out" with English-speaking Americans? Is it elitist to speak Ebonics and not choose (parental or otherwise) to speak standard English? Does that go against the essence of what it means to be American?
I believe that if someone chooses to speak a non-standard dialect, it may (MAY) limit their life choices. A Spanish-only speaking person would have a hard time at Harvard, as everything is taught in English. But that does not mean that a Spanish-taught doctor can't have a successful career in the US without ever having to learn English. But really, isn't it THEIR choice to make? I don't believe that (except for early education) they should necessarily be catered to. If they make that choice, they need to live with the concequences (be they economic, social, or anything else). I just don't know if forced assimilation is the way to go.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 4 2006, 21:02:00 UTC
Does that go against the essence of what it means to be American?
I think to answer your question here (and the ones prior) we must define the essence of what it is to be American -- which is a topic for another post I'm sure.
I don't believe that (except for early education) they should necessarily be catered to. If they make that choice, they need to live with the consequences (be they economic, social, or anything else).
I very much agree with you about accepting one's conditions, and I believe I think that's another part of the topic which underlies my personal opinions about all of this discussion -- many (not all) people who choose not to learn English and attempt to operate in normal American society COMPLAIN about their conditions and beg for relief (mostly economic). I see it as being similar to the present welfare conditions (which I definitely won't go into for the sake of brevity and staying on topic), which amounts to people who are capable to work and do various tasks asking for assistance because (in the case of a Spanish-only speaking person) they can't communicate with a potential employer.
If people didn't complain about their conditions upon choosing their path (of learning English or not), then I don't think I'd take much notice of such educational/economic conditions relating to language barriers, but people do, and thus I voice my opinion.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IizaaksmomAugust 4 2006, 21:06:03 UTC
Except that I wonder who's actually doing the complaining here. I have to be that it's not actually the people on welfare or living as migrant workers, etc. I'll bet it's a lot of lobbyists who want to "help" or get their candidate elected or whatever. Why punish the people because there are others who whine really loud?
I'd be very angered myself if such a comment was asked of me by a teacher mostly because freedom of religion clause in the first Amendment. I guess for me, I see a teacher asking a parent to help their student's English (if they are able) is just as legitimate of a request of a teacher to ask a parent as a teacher asking any parent to read to their child to help stimulate their brains and to help them learn. But everyone has their own tolerance levels for different things. Your point about parents getting upset is a real concern, especially since you and I know that most of the parents might not know any English -- something I was considering putting into my example above, but decided against.
I think my own discussion of the "boy in school" example side-tracked my initial point which I never fully vocialized. While politically speaking, there are many new manners by which children can grow up to be fully bilingual and more properly citizens in this country by learning the dominant language, it appears to me that like Southern racism, part of the barrier to success stems not from the schools themselves, but from the parents and other outside influences.
They speak Deutch (or Pennsylvania Dutch), not Yiddish (that is a Jewish-English hybrid).
Actually, Yiddish does incorporate German into some of the vocabulary (along with some other languages), which is why I thought of it when I was previously writing. But that's a minor detail. :)
In fact, they are extremely elitist in that sense that they will speak Deutch in front of you to one another to deliberately excuse themselves from the conversation...But the Amish are probably the least assimilated and most isolated people ever.
Actually, having lived with two Colombians for over a year now, and having previously lived with an Indian couple for over a year as well, I can safely say that the Amish aren't the only ones who will deliberately speak in their native tongue in front of you to avoid a conversation with you specifically. When you're the only person in a house where everyone else speaks in Spanish or Bengali all of the time, and rarely address you except when they need you for something, it can really wear down on your personal tolerance of such behavior. Not only that, they also tend to hang out with other members of the same community (be it Indian or Colombian) rather than associate with Americans. Although these communities tend to be smaller than the more apparent Mexican communities most people see.
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The right to speak one's native language is also covered by the 1st Amendment. For some people, if they're not very religious, or even if they are, their native language might be just as important to them as their right to freedom of religion.
Besides, it's not as though the English language doesn't contain words from other languages.
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Religion and language aside, the point is how is it wrong for a teacher to request that a parent take an active role in their child's education? I ask my undergraduates to take an active effort in doing their reports, and to seek help when they need it. If they fail, that is of their own cause, not mine. Yet, you cannot hold that same standard to small children just beginning the process of their 18 year education.
Surely some parents (like my own and lhynard go beyond the call of duty and take the time and effort to educate their children solely (i.e., homeschool). I understand that many parents don't have the time, skills or the financial ability to do homeschool full-time. But that does not excuse the parents from negating all of their child's education to their school teachers. For as much as most teachers would love to help out each individual child all the time, you and I realize that they cannot, in practice, do so. Thus, one manner in which a child's education can be furthered is through some level of home-education (e.g., having a parent help their student with homework or with school projects). Just reading to a child at night has shown time and again that it helps to improve a child's performance in school.
Teachers requesting that parents help teach their kids some math, or religion or English is only a symptom in the illness that is parents not actively engaging in/neglecting their children's education.
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So then, you also find it a fair conclusion that if people are in this country and cannot speak proper English that they are uneducated -- even in their own language....
I never said I though people who did not speak proper English were stupid; I said that most were uneducated.
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If I was living in Italy (for example) and raising my children there, if I had a parent-teacher conference and my child's teacher asked me to talk to my children more in Italian than English, I would not be offended, and that for the good of my children I would oblige my teacher's request. (Taking a quick survey of the three other people in the room with me, there is agreement of everyone here that such a comment would not be deemed offensive to them). Thus, while I can see that some overly sensitive people might become offended, I think that a reasonable person who understands the value of learning another language for better survival and education would not be offended. Especially if the teacher is only addressing language and nothing else relating specifically to that person's native culture. That's just my personal take.
Many of their parents are illiterate. What do you do then? ... I agree that the teachers can't do it all. That's why I'm suprised that the government has not created some program for this problem.
Actually, I am not at all surprised that the government hasn't done anything about this. Prejudice and racism amongst the general population used to be motivation enough for immigrants to learn English (more of the forced assimilation that you mentioned previously). With the adoption of more tolerance for uneducated immigrants in the workplace, the American workplace, and subsequently the more liberal policy makers have encouraged older immigrants to not pursue further education (as far I'm concerned).
Something else to consider (consider it a relevant tangent as suggested by my more politically oriented friend sitting beside me), do you think that by educating the children of these more uneducated immigrants, you are actually helping the parents out by setting up a situation where the parents might have to learn some of the material that their children are learning? Perhaps by having the children surpass the parents, there might be an incentive for the parents to also learn English and other things in general.
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We will have to agree to disagree on this one (and I believe that it would very much depend on the circumstances and the approach of the teacher).
Actually, I am not at all surprised that the government hasn't done anything about this.
You have some very good points :)
do you think that by educating the children of these more uneducated immigrants, you are actually helping the parents out by setting up a situation where the parents might have to learn some of the material that their children are learning?
I think that this could be a possibility, and I am sure that it is the hope of educators who work in this (probably frustrating) field. However, it does also depend on cultural values. Some cultures feel the children should succeed further than the parents (Jewish, Asian cultures) other cultures feel that children should follow in their parents footsteps, even education-wise "I've worked in the factory my whole life, and that's good enough for you" (Irish?) So I suppose it would only work if the parents see the point in betterment. So just don't hold that as a cultural value. Have you seen "Real Women Have Curves"? That's about a Spanish girl who wants to go to college. Her community thinks she is too uppity and should focus on getting a good husband. A very intersting film, written by someone within that community.
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I'm willing to agree to that conclusion. :)
Some cultures feel the children should succeed further than the parents (Jewish, Asian cultures) other cultures feel that children should follow in their parents footsteps,
That is a very good point you bring up here. :) One that I am indeed aware of, but something I had forgotten in the context of our discussion here. Definitely something that is beyond the control of the government or the educational system.
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Right, but we're not leaving language aside here. I agree parents should take a role in their childrens' education. But why do you assume they're not if they happen not to speak English? Perhaps they are helping their children with math assignments, or art, or music... Also, I don't think it would be right to penalize children for the things that their parents aren't able to teach them.
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Well, my assumptions related back to my initial example where I'm assigning the parents to be of a minimal educational level. One thought that also came to my mind just now is that while the parents might have knowledge about certain things relating to their specific culture, how might a parent effectively communicate specific ideas to their children if they themselves do not have any knowledge on the subject matter? Let's say they want their children to pass a citizenship test (because the child wasn't born in the US, but came over here at a young age), surely they would want their child to have the knowledge that they need in order to pass it. But without any knowledge of US history and civics, they are unable to be of assistance to their children.
Also, I don't think it would be right to penalize children for the things that their parents aren't able to teach them.
A lack of initiative on the part of the parents is what penalizes the children, not necessarily the public. Furthermore, the subjects/activities I'm proposing that parents do to better educate their children are not complex. How difficult is it for a parent to read a children's story, or to play counting games with toys or to help them playing a recorder? Most of these skills don't require a great level of education.
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Some of them don't even have that level. Also, since they have no education, they often work two, three, four jobs. When do they have time to mess with children's toys? They have to put food on the table.
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Exactly :) (I just happen to be Pa Dutch myself, which is why I mentioned it...)
the Amish aren't the only ones who will deliberately speak in their native tongue in front of you to avoid a conversation with you specifically.
I agree, as it's happened to me on more than one occassion with other language cultures as well.
Not only that, they also tend to hang out with other members of the same community (be it Indian or Colombian) rather than associate with Americans.
I don't know if the people you spoke of were only here a short time or were trying to become citizens, but for the sake of the argument, let's say they were trying to establish a life here. Well, this is the crux of the discussion, in a sense, isn't it? SHOULD people of other races have to "hang out" with English-speaking Americans? Is it elitist to speak Ebonics and not choose (parental or otherwise) to speak standard English? Does that go against the essence of what it means to be American?
I believe that if someone chooses to speak a non-standard dialect, it may (MAY) limit their life choices. A Spanish-only speaking person would have a hard time at Harvard, as everything is taught in English. But that does not mean that a Spanish-taught doctor can't have a successful career in the US without ever having to learn English. But really, isn't it THEIR choice to make? I don't believe that (except for early education) they should necessarily be catered to. If they make that choice, they need to live with the concequences (be they economic, social, or anything else). I just don't know if forced assimilation is the way to go.
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I think to answer your question here (and the ones prior) we must define the essence of what it is to be American -- which is a topic for another post I'm sure.
I don't believe that (except for early education) they should necessarily be catered to. If they make that choice, they need to live with the consequences (be they economic, social, or anything else).
I very much agree with you about accepting one's conditions, and I believe I think that's another part of the topic which underlies my personal opinions about all of this discussion -- many (not all) people who choose not to learn English and attempt to operate in normal American society COMPLAIN about their conditions and beg for relief (mostly economic). I see it as being similar to the present welfare conditions (which I definitely won't go into for the sake of brevity and staying on topic), which amounts to people who are capable to work and do various tasks asking for assistance because (in the case of a Spanish-only speaking person) they can't communicate with a potential employer.
If people didn't complain about their conditions upon choosing their path (of learning English or not), then I don't think I'd take much notice of such educational/economic conditions relating to language barriers, but people do, and thus I voice my opinion.
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