Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 4 2006, 20:21:23 UTC
*Points to icon* I do realize that English does have words from other languages, like German, Italian, Latin, Greek and a some French and Spanish as well.
Religion and language aside, the point is how is it wrong for a teacher to request that a parent take an active role in their child's education? I ask my undergraduates to take an active effort in doing their reports, and to seek help when they need it. If they fail, that is of their own cause, not mine. Yet, you cannot hold that same standard to small children just beginning the process of their 18 year education.
Surely some parents (like my own and lhynard go beyond the call of duty and take the time and effort to educate their children solely (i.e., homeschool). I understand that many parents don't have the time, skills or the financial ability to do homeschool full-time. But that does not excuse the parents from negating all of their child's education to their school teachers. For as much as most teachers would love to help out each individual child all the time, you and I realize that they cannot, in practice, do so. Thus, one manner in which a child's education can be furthered is through some level of home-education (e.g., having a parent help their student with homework or with school projects). Just reading to a child at night has shown time and again that it helps to improve a child's performance in school.
Teachers requesting that parents help teach their kids some math, or religion or English is only a symptom in the illness that is parents not actively engaging in/neglecting their children's education.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IizaaksmomAugust 4 2006, 20:48:27 UTC
I still think that you are disregarding that such a request would be offensive. Also, although it was address, some of these kids pass their parents in schooled education in the third grade (or before). Many of their parents are illiterate. What do you do then? I agree that the teachers can't do it all. That's why I'm suprised that the government has not created some program for this problem. Heck, they create a program for just about everything else :)
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IlhynardAugust 4 2006, 22:19:42 UTC
Many of their parents are illiterate. So then, you also find it a fair conclusion that if people are in this country and cannot speak proper English that they are uneducated -- even in their own language....
I never said I though people who did not speak proper English were stupid; I said that most were uneducated.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IizaaksmomAugust 5 2006, 01:02:33 UTC
No, you missed my point. Statistically, many immigrants are illiterate. Many immigrants can't speak ANY English at all, let alone improperly. So to recommend that they teach their children in English is silly, 1) because they don't speak English and 2) because their child is already possibly more educated than they. I know many an educated person who chose to speak Ebonics (a lawyer friend of mine) within his own culture. My PhD friend from Kentucky deliberately chose to keep her accent. Some very educated people make cultural choices. I don't think you can always equate the two. Although they certainly correlate under many circumstances, Mr. Science man, you should know that correlation is not always indicitive of any conclusion.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 5 2006, 00:18:59 UTC
I still think that you are disregarding that such a request would be offensive.
If I was living in Italy (for example) and raising my children there, if I had a parent-teacher conference and my child's teacher asked me to talk to my children more in Italian than English, I would not be offended, and that for the good of my children I would oblige my teacher's request. (Taking a quick survey of the three other people in the room with me, there is agreement of everyone here that such a comment would not be deemed offensive to them). Thus, while I can see that some overly sensitive people might become offended, I think that a reasonable person who understands the value of learning another language for better survival and education would not be offended. Especially if the teacher is only addressing language and nothing else relating specifically to that person's native culture. That's just my personal take.
Many of their parents are illiterate. What do you do then? ... I agree that the teachers can't do it all. That's why I'm suprised that the government has not created some program for this problem.
Actually, I am not at all surprised that the government hasn't done anything about this. Prejudice and racism amongst the general population used to be motivation enough for immigrants to learn English (more of the forced assimilation that you mentioned previously). With the adoption of more tolerance for uneducated immigrants in the workplace, the American workplace, and subsequently the more liberal policy makers have encouraged older immigrants to not pursue further education (as far I'm concerned).
Something else to consider (consider it a relevant tangent as suggested by my more politically oriented friend sitting beside me), do you think that by educating the children of these more uneducated immigrants, you are actually helping the parents out by setting up a situation where the parents might have to learn some of the material that their children are learning? Perhaps by having the children surpass the parents, there might be an incentive for the parents to also learn English and other things in general.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IizaaksmomAugust 5 2006, 01:10:23 UTC
I would not be offended, and that for the good of my children I would oblige my teacher's request.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one (and I believe that it would very much depend on the circumstances and the approach of the teacher).
Actually, I am not at all surprised that the government hasn't done anything about this. You have some very good points :)
do you think that by educating the children of these more uneducated immigrants, you are actually helping the parents out by setting up a situation where the parents might have to learn some of the material that their children are learning? I think that this could be a possibility, and I am sure that it is the hope of educators who work in this (probably frustrating) field. However, it does also depend on cultural values. Some cultures feel the children should succeed further than the parents (Jewish, Asian cultures) other cultures feel that children should follow in their parents footsteps, even education-wise "I've worked in the factory my whole life, and that's good enough for you" (Irish?) So I suppose it would only work if the parents see the point in betterment. So just don't hold that as a cultural value. Have you seen "Real Women Have Curves"? That's about a Spanish girl who wants to go to college. Her community thinks she is too uppity and should focus on getting a good husband. A very intersting film, written by someone within that community.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 5 2006, 01:42:04 UTC
We will have to agree to disagree on this one
I'm willing to agree to that conclusion. :)
Some cultures feel the children should succeed further than the parents (Jewish, Asian cultures) other cultures feel that children should follow in their parents footsteps,
That is a very good point you bring up here. :) One that I am indeed aware of, but something I had forgotten in the context of our discussion here. Definitely something that is beyond the control of the government or the educational system.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Ila_vita_nuovaAugust 4 2006, 21:05:37 UTC
"Religion and language aside, the point is how is it wrong for a teacher to request that a parent take an active role in their child's education?"
Right, but we're not leaving language aside here. I agree parents should take a role in their childrens' education. But why do you assume they're not if they happen not to speak English? Perhaps they are helping their children with math assignments, or art, or music... Also, I don't think it would be right to penalize children for the things that their parents aren't able to teach them.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 5 2006, 01:01:44 UTC
But why do you assume they're not if they happen not to speak English?
Well, my assumptions related back to my initial example where I'm assigning the parents to be of a minimal educational level. One thought that also came to my mind just now is that while the parents might have knowledge about certain things relating to their specific culture, how might a parent effectively communicate specific ideas to their children if they themselves do not have any knowledge on the subject matter? Let's say they want their children to pass a citizenship test (because the child wasn't born in the US, but came over here at a young age), surely they would want their child to have the knowledge that they need in order to pass it. But without any knowledge of US history and civics, they are unable to be of assistance to their children.
Also, I don't think it would be right to penalize children for the things that their parents aren't able to teach them.
A lack of initiative on the part of the parents is what penalizes the children, not necessarily the public. Furthermore, the subjects/activities I'm proposing that parents do to better educate their children are not complex. How difficult is it for a parent to read a children's story, or to play counting games with toys or to help them playing a recorder? Most of these skills don't require a great level of education.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part IizaaksmomAugust 5 2006, 01:12:41 UTC
Most of these skills don't require a great level of education.
Some of them don't even have that level. Also, since they have no education, they often work two, three, four jobs. When do they have time to mess with children's toys? They have to put food on the table.
Re: I'm Long Winded -- Part Idogs_n_rodentsAugust 5 2006, 01:30:29 UTC
That's true, and it goes back to what I was saying before. Because of the situation of these sorts of families, children are often left at a disadvantage with respect to education and more specifically to becoming more effectively bilingual.
Religion and language aside, the point is how is it wrong for a teacher to request that a parent take an active role in their child's education? I ask my undergraduates to take an active effort in doing their reports, and to seek help when they need it. If they fail, that is of their own cause, not mine. Yet, you cannot hold that same standard to small children just beginning the process of their 18 year education.
Surely some parents (like my own and lhynard go beyond the call of duty and take the time and effort to educate their children solely (i.e., homeschool). I understand that many parents don't have the time, skills or the financial ability to do homeschool full-time. But that does not excuse the parents from negating all of their child's education to their school teachers. For as much as most teachers would love to help out each individual child all the time, you and I realize that they cannot, in practice, do so. Thus, one manner in which a child's education can be furthered is through some level of home-education (e.g., having a parent help their student with homework or with school projects). Just reading to a child at night has shown time and again that it helps to improve a child's performance in school.
Teachers requesting that parents help teach their kids some math, or religion or English is only a symptom in the illness that is parents not actively engaging in/neglecting their children's education.
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So then, you also find it a fair conclusion that if people are in this country and cannot speak proper English that they are uneducated -- even in their own language....
I never said I though people who did not speak proper English were stupid; I said that most were uneducated.
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If I was living in Italy (for example) and raising my children there, if I had a parent-teacher conference and my child's teacher asked me to talk to my children more in Italian than English, I would not be offended, and that for the good of my children I would oblige my teacher's request. (Taking a quick survey of the three other people in the room with me, there is agreement of everyone here that such a comment would not be deemed offensive to them). Thus, while I can see that some overly sensitive people might become offended, I think that a reasonable person who understands the value of learning another language for better survival and education would not be offended. Especially if the teacher is only addressing language and nothing else relating specifically to that person's native culture. That's just my personal take.
Many of their parents are illiterate. What do you do then? ... I agree that the teachers can't do it all. That's why I'm suprised that the government has not created some program for this problem.
Actually, I am not at all surprised that the government hasn't done anything about this. Prejudice and racism amongst the general population used to be motivation enough for immigrants to learn English (more of the forced assimilation that you mentioned previously). With the adoption of more tolerance for uneducated immigrants in the workplace, the American workplace, and subsequently the more liberal policy makers have encouraged older immigrants to not pursue further education (as far I'm concerned).
Something else to consider (consider it a relevant tangent as suggested by my more politically oriented friend sitting beside me), do you think that by educating the children of these more uneducated immigrants, you are actually helping the parents out by setting up a situation where the parents might have to learn some of the material that their children are learning? Perhaps by having the children surpass the parents, there might be an incentive for the parents to also learn English and other things in general.
Reply
We will have to agree to disagree on this one (and I believe that it would very much depend on the circumstances and the approach of the teacher).
Actually, I am not at all surprised that the government hasn't done anything about this.
You have some very good points :)
do you think that by educating the children of these more uneducated immigrants, you are actually helping the parents out by setting up a situation where the parents might have to learn some of the material that their children are learning?
I think that this could be a possibility, and I am sure that it is the hope of educators who work in this (probably frustrating) field. However, it does also depend on cultural values. Some cultures feel the children should succeed further than the parents (Jewish, Asian cultures) other cultures feel that children should follow in their parents footsteps, even education-wise "I've worked in the factory my whole life, and that's good enough for you" (Irish?) So I suppose it would only work if the parents see the point in betterment. So just don't hold that as a cultural value. Have you seen "Real Women Have Curves"? That's about a Spanish girl who wants to go to college. Her community thinks she is too uppity and should focus on getting a good husband. A very intersting film, written by someone within that community.
Reply
I'm willing to agree to that conclusion. :)
Some cultures feel the children should succeed further than the parents (Jewish, Asian cultures) other cultures feel that children should follow in their parents footsteps,
That is a very good point you bring up here. :) One that I am indeed aware of, but something I had forgotten in the context of our discussion here. Definitely something that is beyond the control of the government or the educational system.
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Right, but we're not leaving language aside here. I agree parents should take a role in their childrens' education. But why do you assume they're not if they happen not to speak English? Perhaps they are helping their children with math assignments, or art, or music... Also, I don't think it would be right to penalize children for the things that their parents aren't able to teach them.
Reply
Well, my assumptions related back to my initial example where I'm assigning the parents to be of a minimal educational level. One thought that also came to my mind just now is that while the parents might have knowledge about certain things relating to their specific culture, how might a parent effectively communicate specific ideas to their children if they themselves do not have any knowledge on the subject matter? Let's say they want their children to pass a citizenship test (because the child wasn't born in the US, but came over here at a young age), surely they would want their child to have the knowledge that they need in order to pass it. But without any knowledge of US history and civics, they are unable to be of assistance to their children.
Also, I don't think it would be right to penalize children for the things that their parents aren't able to teach them.
A lack of initiative on the part of the parents is what penalizes the children, not necessarily the public. Furthermore, the subjects/activities I'm proposing that parents do to better educate their children are not complex. How difficult is it for a parent to read a children's story, or to play counting games with toys or to help them playing a recorder? Most of these skills don't require a great level of education.
Reply
Some of them don't even have that level. Also, since they have no education, they often work two, three, four jobs. When do they have time to mess with children's toys? They have to put food on the table.
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