Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.helenixMay 29 2008, 01:05:56 UTC
Hmm. Much to think about.
For now, I'll respond only to the part where I feel I was not understood.
I am not speaking specifically of my self when I speak of innocence. I am speaking of the state of innocence that we are born with. Innocent awareness. Many people, my self included, reject certain ideas (experiences, ways of being, etc) when they encounter them. We 'turn a blind eye'; we ignore. I feel that this is a natural reaction to certain horrors that were not conceived of by us while in the state of innocence. To cling to innocence by denying truth is to be ignorant. I think it is a natural phase that a self-conscious being may go through as their innocence becomes knowledge, & as knowledge becomes Wisdom.
Do you see what I'm saying?
What brought this thought up for me was my contemplation of the adage "Be ye wise as serpents & innocent as doves."
Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.helenixMay 29 2008, 01:28:42 UTC
Ahh, yes. The gender-specific pronoun was used to reflect my understanding of polarity: Yin & Yang, Dark & Light, Egg & Sperm, etc.
I consider Innocence to be on the 'feminine' or receptive end of the spectrum, whereas I view Wisdom to be on the 'masculine' or projective end.
While I'm moving from innocence (through ignorance) toward wisdom, i think it better to simply pray for others & act on changing what I can in my self, which my feelings about others' paths will bring to light for me. Instead of directing negative thoughts toward them, & wasting my own energy, I can use their 'mistakes', as I see them, as teachers. Receptivity, listening, as you suggest
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Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.ioncedreamtyouMay 30 2008, 03:35:13 UTC
Hmm. I'll take that apart, at my liesure.
I do, however, think that the split, here is between reality, and perception - I don't think that perception is real, necessarily, it just feels that way. I don't recognize two realities, just that we overlay a false perception over actuality.
We're going a little further into this than I've wandered.
Sorry, I couldn't help itanomniverseMay 30 2008, 04:14:36 UTC
Is decreeing something to be 'wrong' not embracing duality? 'Right' vs. 'Wrong'.
Yeah, it is. ioncedreamtyou chose his words poorly. That's all.
I don't find that understanding the apparent duality of the physical universe takes me further from the higher reality of unity.
You're right. Even if duality is artificial, it is reality as we see it in every day lives. We aren't here to destroy our egos- THAT is blatant duality. Indeed to achieve enlightenment, ego and imagination must be at work... in particular ways. Impermanence is at the root of everything, and clinging to some sensation of ego-death will only bring suffering. Ego, in a sense, ought to be embraced.
I had a moment the other week when I was meditating on the idea of this physical experience as illusion. I've long held the belief that this is illusion. Then a voice in my head (my Higher Self, God-Self, True Self, whatever word you like to use) floated through with the question, "Do you PERCEIVE the illusion?" I had to admit that I do indeed perceive it. "All that
( ... )
Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.anomniverseMay 29 2008, 12:41:06 UTC
Good thoughts, ioncedreamtyou. I want to ask you about this:
You're praying that the world will be as it is. It doesn't need your prayers, it needs your action. Right action goes further than prayer - you can pray for other people, sure, but I don't think that's how it works. Prayer is, too often, a request for guidance, whether for ourselves, or others.
Guidance is intuition, intuition is developed by listening. You can't pray someone into being self aware, without taking away their choice in the matter. Not your perogative. You can learn to listen.
Most prayer, I think, goes wrong by being a request, and not an admission. If you pray by simply being honest - "I am weak, I hurt, I am afraid, and these are the reasons why..." well. There's the path to destruction of self (Or, if you prefer, self awareness), at least as I see it.This interests me because I’ve been thinking about prayer lately. I don't pray, though I have at times felt an impulse to. I'm willing to believe this is linked to my childhood Christian habits, and that the
( ... )
Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.ioncedreamtyouMay 29 2008, 16:59:06 UTC
I'll own that I have rather violently rejected the generally accepted view of the uses of prayer - "Dear God, I need a new carburetor. Thanks --Steve" -- but I don't think prayer is useless. I feel it's a time to be internally naked, in front of your God
( ... )
Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.helenixMay 29 2008, 17:47:19 UTC
My prayer for 'the world to be as it is' is more-so an admission that I do NOT know what is 'best' for another, that I am small & fallible & learning, growing, all ways changing
( ... )
Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.helenixMay 30 2008, 03:43:39 UTC
*laughing* I can see that, & I admire that in you. I can't emphasise enough how timely this conversation is. I was just challenged by another to deepen my own ability to articulate my thoughts.
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For now, I'll respond only to the part where I feel I was not understood.
I am not speaking specifically of my self when I speak of innocence. I am speaking of the state of innocence that we are born with. Innocent awareness. Many people, my self included, reject certain ideas (experiences, ways of being, etc) when they encounter them. We 'turn a blind eye'; we ignore. I feel that this is a natural reaction to certain horrors that were not conceived of by us while in the state of innocence. To cling to innocence by denying truth is to be ignorant. I think it is a natural phase that a self-conscious being may go through as their innocence becomes knowledge, & as knowledge becomes Wisdom.
Do you see what I'm saying?
What brought this thought up for me was my contemplation of the adage "Be ye wise as serpents & innocent as doves."
Thanks for the thought-food, Mister.
Reply
Innocent awareness is accomplished through lack of self. "Yes and no" "good and bad" "His and hers" all lead to self, which takes away innocence.
Again, destruction of the thing in us that judges (Which we call 'self') is, to me, the answer.
Acceptance and innocence are closely knit, I think.
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I consider Innocence to be on the 'feminine' or receptive end of the spectrum, whereas I view Wisdom to be on the 'masculine' or projective end.
While I'm moving from innocence (through ignorance) toward wisdom, i think it better to simply pray for others & act on changing what I can in my self, which my feelings about others' paths will bring to light for me. Instead of directing negative thoughts toward them, & wasting my own energy, I can use their 'mistakes', as I see them, as teachers. Receptivity, listening, as you suggest ( ... )
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Destruction, in my usage, merely implies intent. I don't know that you can destroy something that doesn't really exist, save that you let it.
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I do, however, think that the split, here is between reality, and perception - I don't think that perception is real, necessarily, it just feels that way. I don't recognize two realities, just that we overlay a false perception over actuality.
We're going a little further into this than I've wandered.
Reply
I didn't say two realities. I said layers.
I do agree that there is a divide between subjective truth & objective truth.
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Is decreeing something to be 'wrong' not embracing duality? 'Right' vs. 'Wrong'.
Yeah, it is. ioncedreamtyou chose his words poorly. That's all.
I don't find that understanding the apparent duality of the physical universe takes me further from the higher reality of unity.
You're right. Even if duality is artificial, it is reality as we see it in every day lives. We aren't here to destroy our egos- THAT is blatant duality. Indeed to achieve enlightenment, ego and imagination must be at work... in particular ways. Impermanence is at the root of everything, and clinging to some sensation of ego-death will only bring suffering. Ego, in a sense, ought to be embraced.
I had a moment the other week when I was meditating on the idea of this physical experience as illusion. I've long held the belief that this is illusion. Then a voice in my head (my Higher Self, God-Self, True Self, whatever word you like to use) floated through with the question, "Do you PERCEIVE the illusion?" I had to admit that I do indeed perceive it. "All that ( ... )
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Awareness.
That's all.
That's all I am, at my most fundamental level. A point of awareness in a sea of consciousness.
& Yet... the drop of water IS the sea.
<3
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You're praying that the world will be as it is. It doesn't need your prayers, it needs your action. Right action goes further than prayer - you can pray for other people, sure, but I don't think that's how it works. Prayer is, too often, a request for guidance, whether for ourselves, or others.
Guidance is intuition, intuition is developed by listening. You can't pray someone into being self aware, without taking away their choice in the matter. Not your perogative. You can learn to listen.
Most prayer, I think, goes wrong by being a request, and not an admission. If you pray by simply being honest - "I am weak, I hurt, I am afraid, and these are the reasons why..." well. There's the path to destruction of self (Or, if you prefer, self awareness), at least as I see it.This interests me because I’ve been thinking about prayer lately. I don't pray, though I have at times felt an impulse to. I'm willing to believe this is linked to my childhood Christian habits, and that the ( ... )
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I can see that, & I admire that in you.
I can't emphasise enough how timely this conversation is. I was just challenged by another to deepen my own ability to articulate my thoughts.
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cheers,
Charles
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