Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.anomniverseMay 29 2008, 12:41:06 UTC
Good thoughts, ioncedreamtyou. I want to ask you about this:
You're praying that the world will be as it is. It doesn't need your prayers, it needs your action. Right action goes further than prayer - you can pray for other people, sure, but I don't think that's how it works. Prayer is, too often, a request for guidance, whether for ourselves, or others.
Guidance is intuition, intuition is developed by listening. You can't pray someone into being self aware, without taking away their choice in the matter. Not your perogative. You can learn to listen.
Most prayer, I think, goes wrong by being a request, and not an admission. If you pray by simply being honest - "I am weak, I hurt, I am afraid, and these are the reasons why..." well. There's the path to destruction of self (Or, if you prefer, self awareness), at least as I see it.
This interests me because I’ve been thinking about prayer lately. I don't pray, though I have at times felt an impulse to. I'm willing to believe this is linked to my childhood Christian habits, and that the reason I do not act on the impulse is because I am still unsure whether a God or some great Listener actually exists or doesn't exist. Until I'm able to further understand this realm of existence, I'll only work at attempting to recognize it in meditation and keep myself open to any enlightening experiences that may come my way.
Now, I'm not so sure blatantly labeling prayer as useless is wise. What I think is really at the root of this, is that you think you are truly in control of every aspect of your existence. I'm not so sure this is healthy. I find my imagination leads me to the attractive conclusion: that, at the root of it all, we are in control; but what proof do I have yet? On the other hand, all too often, the world changes in tremendous ways that are outside of our control. How we react to these changes, I am willing to believe, are our own choice. But still, there are great powers operating at every instant that I am unaware of, or perhaps even incapable of being aware of presently. Very real elements in the world are proof of this, let alone my very existence and consciousness.
In understanding this, I understand there is much more to understand. You may have had some experience which has shed some light on this, but I fail to see it from the words you have chosen. "Guidance is intuition"? How can you be sure? Are you that much in control? Is to think in such a way, a good thing? I understand what you are saying, ioncedreamtyou- I really do- but how do you know that praying for someone to have some enlightening experience is fruitless? (Really, I'm tempted to say, how can you know?) And moreover, how can you know it is not one's prerogative? On a somewhat unrelated subject, what do you think of humanity's worldwide history of prayer?
I'm tempted to think, that to be willing to understand that asking is as important as "simply being honest", is a good path to the destruction of ego.
Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.ioncedreamtyouMay 29 2008, 16:59:06 UTC
I'll own that I have rather violently rejected the generally accepted view of the uses of prayer - "Dear God, I need a new carburetor. Thanks --Steve" -- but I don't think prayer is useless. I feel it's a time to be internally naked, in front of your God.
I don't feel that every aspect of my existence is malleable - I can't change the fact that, up to a certain point, being a white male has influenced my worldview. I can, however, learn to recognize that particular veil, in questioning constantly the roots of my motivations.
"How we react to these changes...are our own choice." Well, yes, exactly. Look at emotion, for instance. I'm not a good enough person to immediately be emotionally unaffected by the actions of others. I am, however, capable of measuring my actions, and understanding which things, within myself, are rooted in said emotional response, and taking care not to react from that place.
"Guidance is intuition,": For me, God is a very internal experience. I forget that other people focus so much more outside of themselves, than I do. When I want to see God, I close my eyes and look inside. It's rooted, a bit, in my belief that God's not "that kind" of force, again, in the "gimme my pony/carburetor/new job" sense. I rather firmly believe that learning to get in touch with God (Or, whatever you call it - The Big-G-Word is a convenient label, I'm not cramming Xtianity down your face.) is merely learning to understand yourself, the better to deal with the world --but that's how I choose to walk.
I read a story, once, where God was described as only taking an interest in the interactions between molecules --and here, my understanding of chemistry is fuzzy. I'm getting there, in college-- that no one really understands why bonding follows the patterns it does, to create the basic things we take for granted, that it was God's only real job, providing that material stability for us to play out our weird little dramas on, as we move away and return. This is the most comfortable depiction of God's will, to me. Insofar as our lives are concerned, this leads me to believe that it's not God's job to provide anything else, but our job to learn to provide stability, in the same manner.
So, praying for someone else to have a realization is like hitting yourself in the foot with a shovel, for their mortgage, to me. Praying for God to put forth his(or her! I don't think Gender matters, here, so the terms are interchangeable to me) hand and change a person takes away their choice, for one thing, and assumes that they can't do it, for another. Mind, this is merely how I think about such things. I make no claims about being the absolute 'right' - right and wrong are, I think, subjective.
As far as the worldwide history of prayer, I don't know. I only have my (admittedly, in a global sense, limited) personal experience to draw from. Though I enjoy the Sufistic idea of prayer as a way to achieve "annihilation, in God." and I like the idea of Zen meditation, and know nearly nothing about Buddhist prayer.
Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.helenixMay 29 2008, 17:47:19 UTC
My prayer for 'the world to be as it is' is more-so an admission that I do NOT know what is 'best' for another, that I am small & fallible & learning, growing, all ways changing.
It is for my own piece of mind, rather than a supplication for someone to have an enlightening experience. It is my way of letting go of my desire to help. When asked, I can be there in whatever capacity I feel guided (yes, by intuition). But I can't just go into people lives & rearrange things in a more pleasing (to me) symmetry. Like you said,that intention is a masked desire to removed another's free will.
I feel like what I meant has not come across clearly to you a-tall, ioncedreamtyou, & that we're arguing semantics.more than anything else.
I appreciate the challenge to deepend the articulation of my thoughts. I too-often develop my own 'codes', & some understand them, & some don't. Often years later I go back & don't remember what I was actually trying to say.
Maybe this is an indication to me that it is time to work on building stronger linguistic bridges between my mind & the minds of others.
Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.helenixMay 30 2008, 03:43:39 UTC
*laughing* I can see that, & I admire that in you. I can't emphasise enough how timely this conversation is. I was just challenged by another to deepen my own ability to articulate my thoughts.
You're praying that the world will be as it is. It doesn't need your prayers, it needs your action. Right action goes further than prayer - you can pray for other people, sure, but I don't think that's how it works. Prayer is, too often, a request for guidance, whether for ourselves, or others.
Guidance is intuition, intuition is developed by listening. You can't pray someone into being self aware, without taking away their choice in the matter. Not your perogative. You can learn to listen.
Most prayer, I think, goes wrong by being a request, and not an admission. If you pray by simply being honest - "I am weak, I hurt, I am afraid, and these are the reasons why..." well. There's the path to destruction of self (Or, if you prefer, self awareness), at least as I see it.
This interests me because I’ve been thinking about prayer lately. I don't pray, though I have at times felt an impulse to. I'm willing to believe this is linked to my childhood Christian habits, and that the reason I do not act on the impulse is because I am still unsure whether a God or some great Listener actually exists or doesn't exist. Until I'm able to further understand this realm of existence, I'll only work at attempting to recognize it in meditation and keep myself open to any enlightening experiences that may come my way.
Now, I'm not so sure blatantly labeling prayer as useless is wise. What I think is really at the root of this, is that you think you are truly in control of every aspect of your existence. I'm not so sure this is healthy. I find my imagination leads me to the attractive conclusion: that, at the root of it all, we are in control; but what proof do I have yet? On the other hand, all too often, the world changes in tremendous ways that are outside of our control. How we react to these changes, I am willing to believe, are our own choice. But still, there are great powers operating at every instant that I am unaware of, or perhaps even incapable of being aware of presently. Very real elements in the world are proof of this, let alone my very existence and consciousness.
In understanding this, I understand there is much more to understand. You may have had some experience which has shed some light on this, but I fail to see it from the words you have chosen. "Guidance is intuition"? How can you be sure? Are you that much in control? Is to think in such a way, a good thing? I understand what you are saying, ioncedreamtyou- I really do- but how do you know that praying for someone to have some enlightening experience is fruitless? (Really, I'm tempted to say, how can you know?) And moreover, how can you know it is not one's prerogative? On a somewhat unrelated subject, what do you think of humanity's worldwide history of prayer?
I'm tempted to think, that to be willing to understand that asking is as important as "simply being honest", is a good path to the destruction of ego.
Reply
I don't feel that every aspect of my existence is malleable - I can't change the fact that, up to a certain point, being a white male has influenced my worldview. I can, however, learn to recognize that particular veil, in questioning constantly the roots of my motivations.
"How we react to these changes...are our own choice." Well, yes, exactly. Look at emotion, for instance. I'm not a good enough person to immediately be emotionally unaffected by the actions of others. I am, however, capable of measuring my actions, and understanding which things, within myself, are rooted in said emotional response, and taking care not to react from that place.
"Guidance is intuition,": For me, God is a very internal experience. I forget that other people focus so much more outside of themselves, than I do. When I want to see God, I close my eyes and look inside. It's rooted, a bit, in my belief that God's not "that kind" of force, again, in the "gimme my pony/carburetor/new job" sense. I rather firmly believe that learning to get in touch with God (Or, whatever you call it - The Big-G-Word is a convenient label, I'm not cramming Xtianity down your face.) is merely learning to understand yourself, the better to deal with the world --but that's how I choose to walk.
I read a story, once, where God was described as only taking an interest in the interactions between molecules --and here, my understanding of chemistry is fuzzy. I'm getting there, in college-- that no one really understands why bonding follows the patterns it does, to create the basic things we take for granted, that it was God's only real job, providing that material stability for us to play out our weird little dramas on, as we move away and return. This is the most comfortable depiction of God's will, to me. Insofar as our lives are concerned, this leads me to believe that it's not God's job to provide anything else, but our job to learn to provide stability, in the same manner.
So, praying for someone else to have a realization is like hitting yourself in the foot with a shovel, for their mortgage, to me. Praying for God to put forth his(or her! I don't think Gender matters, here, so the terms are interchangeable to me) hand and change a person takes away their choice, for one thing, and assumes that they can't do it, for another. Mind, this is merely how I think about such things. I make no claims about being the absolute 'right' - right and wrong are, I think, subjective.
As far as the worldwide history of prayer, I don't know. I only have my (admittedly, in a global sense, limited) personal experience to draw from. Though I enjoy the Sufistic idea of prayer as a way to achieve "annihilation, in God." and I like the idea of Zen meditation, and know nearly nothing about Buddhist prayer.
Reply
It is for my own piece of mind, rather than a supplication for someone to have an enlightening experience. It is my way of letting go of my desire to help. When asked, I can be there in whatever capacity I feel guided (yes, by intuition). But I can't just go into people lives & rearrange things in a more pleasing (to me) symmetry. Like you said,that intention is a masked desire to removed another's free will.
I feel like what I meant has not come across clearly to you a-tall, ioncedreamtyou, & that we're arguing semantics.more than anything else.
I appreciate the challenge to deepend the articulation of my thoughts. I too-often develop my own 'codes', & some understand them, & some don't. Often years later I go back & don't remember what I was actually trying to say.
Maybe this is an indication to me that it is time to work on building stronger linguistic bridges between my mind & the minds of others.
I really enjoy this thread.
<3
Reply
Reply
I can see that, & I admire that in you.
I can't emphasise enough how timely this conversation is. I was just challenged by another to deepen my own ability to articulate my thoughts.
Reply
cheers,
Charles
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