A meta by
karenmiller got me thinking about Dean and Sam and the overturning of their belief systems since S2 ("HotH") and how that would affect their actions at the end of S4. I started typing my response only to find I wrote way too much to politely post as a comment (oops), so I'm posting my thoughts here because nobody cares if I pollute my own journal
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Which is pretty much the same argumentat why Dean lost his own faith when he was 4 years old. He couldn't reconciliate the fact that God allowed random evil to kill Mary, who was a believer, with the thought of a benevolent power and hence abandoned God alltogether.
His Faith has been replaced with a last ditch desperate grab for something good to come out of "his curse" because I think he believes that he might be able to save himself if his actions save lives.I do believe this as well. It harks back to Playthings where Sam thought that if he only saved enough lives, he could change his own destiny. Back then I think he still thought of God as the saving grace, who would protect him if he only proved to be good enough. Nowadays, I think he feels forsaken by God, his brother and the ( ... )
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Good point! And to add to that, I bet John's belief system also overhauled as a result of those events. Seems like Sam is just following in the footsteps of those that have come before him.
[Sam] feels forsaken by God, his brother and the world and he needs to prove them all wrong, even if it kills him in the process.I think you've hit the nail on the head. Even though I don't think Sam is overtly suicidal, I don't doubt that thought has never crossed his mind, esp. with recent turn of events. Sam's always prided himself on his independence, and I bet he's the last one who ever thought he's be dependent on an addictive substance or even dependent on Ruby, a DEMON, for his fix. If he can't even clean himself from "his curse" I think he probably wants to die, esp. if that means other people will live. Because Sam is afraid of himself and what he's becoming as much (if not more) than anyone else. Recall his words in S2 about him telling Dean if ( ... )
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I imagine he lost some in his memory of Mary, too. He thought she was great, but the last image we know he had of her, was her making a deal with a demon. He discovered what Sam had known for more than a year, that Mary knew the YED, and hid the truth from them.
And yeah, it's a good point about how both have been losing their faith this season, including in one another.
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Have you had time to watch the "ItB" commentary with Kripke and Carver yet? Apparently, one of the many reasons why they couldn't have Azazel be too specific about his side of the the deal with Mary was because they didn't want to vilify her by having her sacrifice one of her unborn children for John. So they opted with a vague notion that Azazel just needed permission to enter her house and that if he was interrupted nobody would get hurt. So it's good to know that the writers are trying to preserve the memory of Mary somewhat.
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Yeah, I suspected they had done that at the time. Of course, we, the viewers already knew what he was up to. I think Mary might still have made the deal, but I don't think she would have been so unprepared for his arrival.
In fact, that would be a really interesting AU story -- of Mary turning into Sam as she knows all along a day is approaching but tries to keep it from John, while still hunting down the YED>
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They're on YouTube! Growyourwings posted all the embeds at her journal here:
http://growyourwings.livejournal.com/286081.html
I'm not certain, but my guess is that it'll be included as one of the DVD extras. I hope so at least.
that would be a really interesting AU story...
It would be (plus, I sort of miss Azazel). I have a fondness for well-written AU fic, esp. ones that take canon facts and reinvent stories around them that change the perspective of events/characters without contradicting canon facts/events/characterization. Not an easy task, but very cool when it happens. The summer hiatus is a good time for me to read fic, something I don't do much of otherwise.
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*snork* Yep.
I'd "tabbed" your post and now I'm going back and play catch-up, so you're making me all anxious to see where Season 5 is going to take the Boys on their quest to save each other. What's exciting about this point, for me, is that, unhindered by the past now that their idols have fallen, they are now free to choose.
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Glad you decided to take a peek after the fact.
anxious to see where Season 5 is going to take the Boys on their quest to save each other
So many possibilities! I can't wait to see what transpires in 5x01 ... I think after that we'll get a real sense of where S5 is headed. In fact, I have a feeling that it'll be similar to the bridge between 1x22 and 2x01 whereby we'll be seeing the end arc of S4 and the big fat seeds to S5 in the same episode (5x01), which will technically/storywise is part of the previous season.
unhindered by the past now that their idols have fallen, they are now free to choose.Yes! \o/ I think, too, that not only are they started to see the ugly reality of the ones they elevated once upon a time, they've also seen each others'. Learning to accept each other warts and all is what I think the Big Outcome will be from S4. And even though they'll still subscribe to the big brother and little brother roles (as it's practically impulse by now ( ... )
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