₪ everything's contagious it's a modern middle ages

[errantknights]

The question-and-answer aspect of the nexus has always entertained Martel - mostly because he's a sick bastard who enjoys other people making idiots of themselves now and then - but it's been a very rare occasion that he'd indulge himself, and rarer still that he'd indulge it stone cold sober.

He'd like very much not to be stone cold sober,

Comments

[passes_out]

Ichabod decided that it was best to go to the Agora since he has heard that there was a meeting of sorts going on within the structure. He took his seat and waited patiently. Not that he liked being in such places where he would be in the public eye so much but he demanded answers if he chooses not to ask any questions himself.

Upon hearing the question asked, he stood up and clasped his hands behind his back to address the one that asked. "I believe redemption is the most valuable. To define the two, reform is forced upon which could easily be broken if one chooses to follow a different path that was set in order to be free from confinement such as prison or excommunication. Redemption requires a whole new change in prospective that often goes hand in hand with maturity and learning of one's faults hence growth on a deeper and more personal level."

[errantknights]

What interests Martel here is that it's essentially the same answer as he has - only reversed. He tilts his head back, thoughtful, considering Ichabod with a steady gaze.

(The word 'excommunication' is of particular interest, but he sidesteps it instead of zeroing in as he's tempted to.)

"In your opinion, then, to reform oneself is never a choice."

[passes_out]

Ichabod regarded Martel with similar interest and responded confidently. "The term reform often means to change a person for the betterment of a society or a social group. If you are asking of a person chooses to reform himself willingly, then the conscious effort would be leaning toward redemption. It is philosophical point that not many choose to delve into for the sake of argument. A reformed man is often molded to fit the schema of a social group."

It wasn't often that he divulged himself into these discussions when there were so many different patters of thinking that come into play.

[errantknights]

"Would it?" Martel is mild - a little challenging, but genuinely interested in hearing what Ichabod has to say on the subject, what he thinks. A considered opinion is slightly more than he was actually expecting from this exercise; it would be fair to say he's disinclined to assume that most people in the nexus could fill a teaspoon with their intellect. "Redemption, as I understand it, is rather like forgiveness; it exists in the eyes of someone else."

[heardmermaids]

"I think it depends on who's value system you're going by. In my experience, reform is external, like what other people want, and redemption is about what you want."

[errantknights]

"Is redemption about what you want?" Eyebrows: they are raised. "In whose eyes does a man have to be considered 'redeemed' before he is?"

[heardmermaids]

Sebastian frowns and has to spend a while in silence to gather and organize his thoughts. "Maybe I should rephrase that. Reform is externally imposed and redemption is internally sought. Is that better?"

[errantknights]

"I'm not issuing marks at the end of the exercise," Martel promises dryly. "This time. Redemption still requires a reflection; doesn't it go hand in hand with forgiveness? By who are we satisfactorily redeemed?"

[hisgovernance]

The grounds surrounding Gatas Castle are not so varied that Davidias could be oblivious when walking them that the grounds were suddenly not very grounds-like at all, but the Count is (perhaps as an unfortunate side effect of his profession) not the sort of person that will let a sudden change of environs ruin a perfectly good walk, especially not if it means a chance to explore something so invitingly pokeable. (Davidias is that particular sort of man who, upon being confronted with a festering boil, knows exactly what he's doing when he prods it with a finger and asks, "does that hurt?")

Thus, he finds his way to the agora without much in the way of preamble, and upon finding the agora, spots a particularly arresting sight that is rather too distinctive to avoid his attention, and, as you do when you're an Alcione with rather more wryness in your diet than your sister's physician recommends, finds himself wandering over for a closer look

[errantknights]

...well, it's been a while since this happened; Martel considers, philosophically, that he was probably about due. Usually they're not so polite about it, though, and he doesn't think he recognizes this man - also unusual. (If only he knew how Davidias were identifying him.)

So he pauses, but only for a moment. "If only my wife and physician were as sanguine about it," he says, dryly, casting an appraising eye over the- Deiran? Yes, that accent has to be Deiran.

[hisgovernance]

(In the absence of personal experience, there's ALWAYS pictorial evidence.)

Davidias' face fractures with bemusement just a little at the mention of 'wife', there - this is evidently at odds with the mental image of Martel he's inherited from the various accounts of the man told in his presence - but Davidias has a potent poker face when he bothers trying (he usually doesn't, it's more fun that way).

"In my experience, wives and physicians are rarely sanguine about anything involving their husbands and bodily injury. Although I wonder what kind of injury could be more vexing to a wife than death. It seems like most anything else rather pales in comparison, doesn't it?"

The flippancy's a bit forced, but that part should be obvious.

[errantknights]

"I completely agree," he says, silkily, not making this any easier; the attitude is more familiar than the man himself, and Martel is remarkably not inclined to take mercy on his fellow Elenes. Particularly the ones who know who he is, and particularly those he doesn't recognize that do- he's never liked the sensation of 'not knowing'.

(It's got him in trouble in the past, that.)

"So you'd think, having died once and being little the worse for wear, she'd worry less."

[sandrocker]

"One does not generally ask that, unless one has reformed or sought redemption...does one?"

Hello, Martel. Meet a bigger brat than you.

[errantknights]

"I take it you haven't spent a great deal of time in the company of the self-righteous," Martel posits an alternative, smiling.

(...straight answers are for chumps.)

[sandrocker]

Quatre returns the smile. "On the contrary, I spend every day with them." He pauses, tilting his head just slightly. "And it is, in my experience, the reformer and supposedly self-righteous are one in the same."

[errantknights]

"Those proverbial 'enforcers' I've been hearing about," he suggests, amused. ...Martel doesn't look like anyone's idea of a righteous arbiter of morality.

[warped_inside]

"Redemption."

If you're looking for interesting things to happen, Tosh figures the Agora is as good a place as any. And if nothing else, she can listen in on some educational conversation. A lot of these questions that get posed, she keeps her opinions to herself.

She's dead certain about her answer to this one, though. "Reform is passive -- it just means you stop doing whatever it was you shouldn't have been doing in the first place. Like smoking, or robbing banks. You don't make up for anything you've already done, you just stop yourself from doing it in the future. Redemption means you have to take some action, do something, to make up for that past action. It means you have to work at balancing out your indiscretions with something good and worthwhile, that you can't just ignore them and say 'water under the bridge' about it."

[errantknights]

"Hello, Toshiko," he says, mildly- he's pleased to see her, actually, but you might not know it to look at him. (It's that kind of a day, the kind where it just aches everywhere and it'd take maybe his naked wife on top of a pile of books to make him smile.)

"Do you think reform is so passive? That it wouldn't take work to change a way of thinking, of living? Are there never times when to presume to 'balance out' a crime is - just that, presumptuous?"

[warped_inside]

Tosh smiles back, used to knowing people who can be moody. If he was displeased to see her, she's pretty sure he simply wouldn't bother.

"I think both require you to change your way of thinking and living. But reform is focused on refraining from activity, where redemption is about doing more, I guess." She shrugs a little, acknowledging Martel's point. "I suppose there are lots of times when you shouldn't expect to be able to succeed at balancing it out, but that only means you can't stop working at it. Even if it is presumptuous to believe you can, that doesn't change the fact that you have to try."

[errantknights]

"So what do we call it when a man doesn't strive to 'balance out' or seek forgiveness, but reform himself and in doing so improve his behaviour- actively? Redemption is best done earned, I'll concede that, but ultimately it's something that's given; a man can't redeem himself in his own eyes." His lips quirk like he almost smiled, and he shrugs, too.