Willow's reaction to Tara's death Vs Jack's raction to Ianto's death

[woman_of_]

Ok, so RTD keeps saying how much he admires Joss Whedon. Has he learned anything from him at all? Let us look at one scernio "Willow's reaction to Tara's death Vs Jack's reaction to Ianto's death", and I think we will see that RTD is a big FAIL!

Comments

[sam_can_do_it]

I'm going to disagree with this a bit.

With Willow and Tara, this was only Willow's second relationship ever and Willow had never experienced the death of someone extremely close to her. She was in her early 20's and

Jack, is several thousand years old now. He's loved and lost and watched tons of people that he loves die. Jack may have loved Ianto, may not have. The fact is, Jack may no longer be entirely capable of love, he's lost too many people for him to give his heart away easily. The ambiguousness of the feelings is part of the character. Ianto obviously loved Jack, however, he was never entirely sure of Jack's true feelings. Not to mention, Ianto died in the middle of the crisis, Jack didn't have the luxury of falling apart. Plus, Jack has already seen the reprucussions of trying to bring back a person he cares about.

As for the 22 episodes vs. 13 or 5, that's more about the fact we're talking USA vs. UK.

[woman_of_]

I don't really think we are disagreeing to be honest. Ianto's death doesn't explain Jack's decision to kill his grandson, and isn't an excuse for it.

[sam_can_do_it]

I think the big issue here is that I don't think Willow/Tara and Jack/Ianto are even remotely comparible at any point through out either show. I think all four people in both relationships are far too different. The only parallel things are the gay thing and the death thing.

[woman_of_]

It is in interviews post CoE that RTD is saying that Ianto had to die to explain why Jack did what he did, not me saying that. I just dont' buy it.

[lilithbint]

I'm not a major fan of Joss as a writer/creator to be honest. It's only Spike who's ever really captured my long term interest. RTD has at least given me several characters I am still interested in even if they are dead

[woman_of_]

I know RTD and the others have said that Ianto needed to die to tip Jack over the edge, but it wasn't just that, otherwise that is all they would have done, like they did to Willow by killing Tara. Instead they systematically stripped Jack of everything to reach the moment he had to choose to sacrifice Steven. He'd previously lost three of his team, then the trappings of Torchwood and the accompanying power that gave him (the SUV, the Hub, and his connections to government). Then, when he tried to act like the Doctor and confront the aliens, he lost Ianto someone he was beginning to care for and who had given him complete loyalty.Yes, all these aspects of Jack's life where ripped from him, and of course the losing of Tosh and Owen as well. I can see that leading to Jack's decision to leave, but still think he would've killed his grandson in the end. That is Jack's nature, to make the tough decisions, I just don't think Ianto had to die lead to that decision, Jack would've made it anyway, and I think we could have many discussions on

[lilithbint]

RTD is definitely a twit,
luckily I don't need him to enjoy Torchwood. I've gotten used to writing/living in an AU world.

[woman_of_]

He is! I think that is what has caused me to lose faith more than anything else. Is it worth getting invested in any character (except Jack and Gwen) at all.

[flake_sake]

Hm, I saw Jack/Ianto as very different from Willow/Tara so I'm ok with the different ways it played out, but to say Jack would have to see Ianto killed, to sacrifice his grandson. I don't know.

He knows that among the endangered families on earth are Ianto's realives and their kids and that Ianto counted on him to protect them. Also he has (arguably) lost the person he kept a human appearence for.

But I can't really say that Jack would have made a different decission with Ianto alive or if the child in question was one of Ianto's sisters. So was it necessary...no I don't think so, but it added to the horror and wasn't bad either.

[woman_of_]

Maybe it didn't add to the horror for me, so I still didn't see the point of it. Ianto's death felt like a waste to me, and a character and relationship that could still have been explored a lot more.

I just didn't see the connection between them was enough to explain any of Jack's later actions at all.

[elisi]

I'm not sure those two events are really comparable. Apart from both couples being gay, story-wise there's not much in common as such.

Willow is not the hero of BtVS, and in S6 she becomes the main Big Bad. Tara's death (a total fluke) turns her into an avenging angel, and then someone trying to destroy the world.

Ianto dies partly because of Jack's actions in 1965, partly because he chooses to stand by Jack's side when confronting the 456. His death makes Jack give up. (I have an essay on Jack and heroism knocking around in my head, but I've not got the time for writing it down just yet.) Ianto's death is about taking everything away from Jack, until there's nothing left, not about grief-fulled revenge.

Um... it's a little early, so I think I'll just point you towards this essay, which says everything I think.

(Janto was always like Spuffy to me. Willow/Tara is... in another country, relationship wise. I would have HATED Jack/Ianto turning into them.)

[woman_of_]

I felt it was a missed opportunity to explore more of Jack's character, and that the fleshing out of Ianto's was skipped totally. There was no conection between them to explain why it would effect Jack's later actions at all, which RTD seems to think it does.

[inkingwords]

I felt all of the emotions when Tara died. You had gotten to know the characters and their connection together. With TW, everything seemed so rushed. Ianto's death was sad and emotional but not in the same way. I don't feel like Jack connected with him because he wanted him. I feel like he was convenient to him

[woman_of_]

Yes, totally agree. There needed to be more character development for Ianto, and deeper exporation of the relationship between Jack and Ianto to show why it would effect Jack's actions.