Comments | wisdomeagle: unpopular fannish opinions. again.

wisdomeagle

unpopular fannish opinions. again.

Feb 02, 2005 23:08

I'm having so much fun reading these unpopular fannish opinions that I felt the urge to have some of my very own. I might have gone overboard just a bit. There are 12 unpopular Angel opinions, 10 unpopular Buffy opinions, 10 unpopular general Jossverse opinions, and 20 popular opinions, just for kicks.

[spoilers through NFA]

( Some unpopular opinions alll my own. )

unpopular fannish opinions

Comments 41

sk8eeyore February 3 2005, 04:30:53 UTC

I like Tara an awful lot and while she might not be the most compelling character, she's beautiful and lovely and shy and so much like me that, despite knowing I shouldn't, I take it personally when people dislike her. Tara is the character who's most real to me because she is me.

Totally.

BTW, how on earth do you make time for fandom AND being a great student (especially with theses) the way you do? I'm kind of in awe.

wisdomeagle February 3 2005, 04:34:56 UTC

I skimp on things like eating and sleeping and having a life.

And I really should spend more time on theses and less on fandom... but fandom is so compelling!

mosca February 3 2005, 04:31:44 UTC

I agree with you on a lot of these. I love Fred and her moments of complexity that everyone forgets about. It frustrates me that she got dismissed very quickly as a Mary Sue, to the point where (circa "Supersymmetry") she became a layered character, nobody was allowed to like her anymore. Because obviously her only use was as a love interest. And you know, Joss's crush on her is obvious-- frightening, if you listen to the DVD commentary-- but she transcends that a lot. Not least because Amy Acker is one hell of an actress.

Totally with you on Spike, Xander/Anya, Spangel, the bisexuality of everyone, and the swiftness of Faith's arc. You've summarized Wes/Fred well: he's so blinded by his idea of her that he's ceased to love the real person. (That's how I read Mal/Inara, too-- it's a theme in the greater Jossverse.)

Friending you because I think I like your brain, and because callmesandy told me to.

wisdomeagle February 3 2005, 04:38:52 UTC

nobody was allowed to like her anymore. Because obviously her only use was as a love interest.

*sigh* It's things like this that make me glad I watched the show first and got into fandom second.

And you know, Joss's crush on her is obvious-- frightening, if you listen to the DVD commentary

I've heard that a lot but didn't notice it myself when listening to the commentaries. But then, I've got a big crush on Fred, too.

You've summarized Wes/Fred well: he's so blinded by his idea of her that he's ceased to love the real person. (That's how I read Mal/Inara, too-- it's a theme in the greater Jossverse.)Innteresting on the Mal/Inara; I'll have to consider that more. It's not a 'ship I like, so I spend most of my time ignoring it ( ... )

mosca February 3 2005, 05:02:39 UTC

*sigh* It's things like this that make me glad I watched the show first and got into fandom second.

I didn't realize the depth of the Fred hate until sometime in S5. I didn't like her for a while, myself-- it took the Jasmine arc and some rewatching of early S3 for me to figure out what she was up to.

Innteresting on the Mal/Inara; I'll have to consider that more. It's not a 'ship I like, so I spend most of my time ignoring it.It's a 'ship I only like if they never get together. I like the sexual tension, you know? But I am weak for Kaylee/Inara and Mal/Jayne ( ... )

wisdomeagle February 3 2005, 05:17:26 UTC

Heh -- I think I've just realized that fandom made me love Fred almost as a defense mechanism. I mean, sure, she did some things that piss me off (specifically her failure to stand up for Wesley in S3), but I sure don't think she deserves the fanhate she gets.

It's a 'ship I only like if they never get together. I like the sexual tension, you know?

I'm beginning to think I've got more than one of that kind of pairing. But I'm not sure I could name them off the top of my head.

I agree that Simon/Kaylee has that element of idealization, although I think it's mutual-- Simon starts seeing Kaylee as sophisticated and unattainable, or assumes she must be because she's into him. The other place I *really* see the dynamic is Angel/Cordy, where it seems like they fall in love because everyone is telling them they ought to.

Huh. I've only seen Firefly once, so I don't know if I could really say for sure, and I don't really get Simon (except insofar as he loves River). And I don't so much see that in Angel/Cordy, but then again, I'm odd.

( ... )

cadence_k February 3 2005, 04:42:55 UTC

I agreed with some, disagreed on others, but overall this was interesting!

This one, though, is totally right on: 'I see everyone in Jossverse canon as bisexual, with a few possible exceptions that I can't think of at the moment.' Hell yeah! :)

wisdomeagle February 3 2005, 04:46:03 UTC

Well, I'm glad you disagreed with some: that's the whole point of them being unpopular. :)

Yay bisexuality!

hermionesviolin February 3 2005, 05:05:58 UTC

I like Fred, too. I really liked Illyria, though. And not just for the hotness and the showcasing of AA’s acting abilities. Illyria’s possession of Fred was problematic because of all the uber-romanticization of Fred that came along with it (we’ve talked some about this before, when we talked about Wes/Fred) but once Illyria was actually around, i found her really interesting. She was somewhat like Anya and Glory with the whole Superiority Complex Wisdom of Ages Trapped in Inferior Human Body thing going on, but she also has her own schtick ( ... )

wisdomeagle February 3 2005, 05:27:08 UTC

Hee, we've definately discussed lots of this before: Fred, Wes/Fred, Willow/Tara, and I think even Marti.

I dislike the hate and stupidity and insults (and atrociously bad fanfic) in fandom but love the community of critical thinking. Yes, it has ruined me in some ways, but i tend to think that if something can’t stand up to a good critical eye than maybe i don’t wanna be watching it. (This is me being a bitch and clearly is not how everyone operates, and i wouldn’t require that everyone operate as i do -- much though i might like to.)I wouldn't abandon fandom for the world, and this kind of critical thinking makes my brain so happy, since it's the kind of thing I've always loved but never really had a name for until suddenly there was fandom and lots of people thinking seriously about the same kinds of things. On some level, I think I want to be able to analyze the source as it's given and not have to pick it apart and say, "look, continuity errors," or "look, bad feminism," or "look, Marti has issues." But then of course the source ( ... )

hermionesviolin February 3 2005, 06:14:30 UTC

Yay for discussion! We have established quite definitively that we do not share a brain, but it's probably better that way :)

Oh, critical analysis to the point where one forgets what one loves the show, yes, i definitely agree that that's a bad thing.

I'm a big fan of Spuffy, but i can see the discussion being head-spinning and thus leading to not-caring and am not going to force you to engage in a thorough discussion with me since you're content to just leave me to my opinions.

I'm not sure if i ever particularly identify with Buffy, but a friend of mine was a senior in college that year and really identified and her talk has ever since colored how i look at S6. I think even without her, though, i would have appreciated the idea of Life/Adulthood As Enemy and other such themes (though i loathed her decision to work at DMP; asking for a monetary settlement sufficient to last until Dawn was out of college would have been the sensible thing to do -- though i suppose one could argue that she was having self-loathing issues and an ( ... )

wisdomeagle February 3 2005, 06:27:10 UTC

True, true. I already share a brain with Gvambat and there's really not room for more people in there.

Yes, you're entirely free to feel whatever you would like about Spuffy. I've read way too much meta on it, since it's a popular topic for meta, and have been told that:
-It was a horribly abusive relationship for both of them
-It was in fact a genuine romance
-Spike almost raped Buffy
-Buffy raped Spike
-Buffy's abuse of Spike was worse than Spike's of Buffy
-But of course anyone who believes that is in the habit of blaming the victim
-S7 should have dealt with it and then had them move on
-S7 they should have had sex, PCness be damned
-Spike was entirely to blame for the AR
-Spike wasn't at all to blame for the AR
-Buffy was to blame
-Or possibly Marti
-And also of course Joss, who's fault it all is.
-they were in a BDSM 'ship without a safeword and shit happens
-Their relationship had no BDSM elements whatsoever

Personally I think that Spike should have gone to Africa to get a soul, and they should have played it straight, no ( ... )

Thread 6

webbgirl February 3 2005, 05:08:32 UTC

10. Cordelia and Angel aren't siblings. Cordelia and Wesley aren't siblings. Willow and Xander aren't siblings, and the word incest does not. Apply.

Word. I've been having this same argument with other folks in other fandoms lately. I'm not a huge Dan/Sam fan in SGland and actually find the pairing somewhat squicky for the most part for many reasons... However, calling it 'incest' is soooo not a valid arguement. Unless TPTB pull an 'All My Children' and make Hammond their father, it's NOT incest.

Also, while I'm on a minor rant in your lj, just because there's a 20 year age gap, it does not automatically make the relationship 'paternal' in nature.

Sorry for the mini-rant. I stopped watching Angel with any sort of consistency after Doyle died. I have eventually caught all the eps though and agree with quite a few of your opinions.

wisdomeagle February 3 2005, 05:19:02 UTC

Oh, for true. I've ranted about this before; I don't know if you remember, in regards to Giles pairings and of course Sam/Daniel, which is one my of my big OTPs, as you (might) know.

But yeah. The whole incest argument in regards to pairings that aren't actually incest? Makes my head spin.

webbgirl February 3 2005, 05:25:26 UTC

I did vaguely remember you as a Sam/Dan fan. Which goes to prove my whole theory that some truly intelligent people can like some really whacked out pairings. *g*

I just find the whole 'incest' arguement insulting on sooo many levels. Since it's pretty much always used in a pujoritive manner, it's like telling someone that their chosen pairing is 'perverted'. Not that all of us slashers aren't going straight to hell anyway for taking all of those nice pristine men and women and making them do all sorts of nasty things. *g*

wisdomeagle February 3 2005, 05:34:38 UTC

I did vaguely remember you as a Sam/Dan fan. Which goes to prove my whole theory that some truly intelligent people can like some really whacked out pairings. *g*

Hee. I *live* for the whacked out pairings, man. :p

fake!incest rant.

I actually am mostly tolerantly amused by the incest argument, and actually I consdered making the text on this icon read "twincest is sexy" instead of "this is sex," but then, I 'ship so much whacked and wrong stuff, and know it, and 'ship it because it's dark and wrong, so, yeah.

I don't know if I'm thick-skinned or thin-skinned, but if I don't let the Sam/Daniel thing go, I'll have a heart attack before I'm twenty, so I try to be cool about it.