unpopular fannish opinions. again.
I'm having so much fun reading these unpopular fannish opinions that I felt the urge to have some of my very own. I might have gone overboard just a bit. There are 12 unpopular Angel opinions, 10 unpopular Buffy opinions, 10 unpopular general Jossverse opinions, and 20 popular opinions, just for kicks.
[spoilers through NFA]
Angel
1. I like Fred and think that, despite the fact that she was never the focal point even of her own arc, she was a well-crafted, interesting, beautiful character and I love her. A lot. So there.
2. I think Wes's feelings for Fred are at least half based on his own ideals about what love and romance should be, that they could probably never be happy together because both come with so much baggage and because their relationship is so tainted with so many issues, and that, despite that, there is a kernel of rightness in their relationship, of attraction and friendship and love and desire, that transcends all the horrible dren that's associated with their relationship. In other words, yes, shameless Wes/Fred shipper.
3. I didn't think I would ever like Angel/Cordelia, was vaguely squicked and confused by the idea of it, and will say endlessly and forever that they are Just Friends. Until S3. And then Joss sold me on their love hook, line, and sinker. I think their love for each other is far more mature than Angel's love for Buffy ever was, that they are a pair of friends who've made a life together, who have compatible personalities, and who love each other deeply. I think their mystical connection as Seer and Hero is beautiful (I think the same of Angel/Doyle, of course, and Giles/Buffy and various other pairings) and love the way it slowly bloomed into romance. I loved Offspring-Provider. Squeed my way through. Or, in other words, yes, shameless Angel/Cordy shipper too.
4. I think Gunn and Fred truly loved each other and were cute together. I'm not sad that their ship ended, because I don't think it ever really could have lasted, but in another time or another place, it could have. I'm sad that the 'ship was mishandled and treated just as a means to break Wesley, as was Fred's entire arc.
5. I think Cordelia was still controlling the body until "Spin the Bottle," when she started to act weirdly but wasn't quite sure why. I vaguely suspect it wasn't till she was impregnated that the post-hypnotic suggestion really started kicking in, but I think Cordelia was still aware of herself as a concious agent at least part of the time until around "Calvary." I quite like the idea, not mine, that a large part of pod!Cordy's personality comes from Cordelia's idea of what a villain should be rather than from Jasmine.
6. I dislike both the evil!Cordy arc and the Illyria arc, despite adoring evil characters, because both Cordy and Fred were robbed of their agency. The arcs revolve around the other characters reacting to the evil entities posessing the bodies, not the characters' own inner darkness or the way they deal with the evil within. I think the Cordy arc can be redeemed by retconning, but the Illyria arc was just a poor choice, despite showing off AA's acting ability.
7. I think Joss should have left incarnation theology well enough alone given that he's a practicing athiest, but I respect that it's his story to tell, and given his distrust of organized religion, the Jasmine-arc isn't all bad.
8. I like Fred better than Illyria. I like Illyria too, but think Its arc was poorly handled and a bad choice given the givens (they had to move all their plotlines up a notch after the cancellation.) I like Illyria in ats_nolimits better than canon Illyria becasue she/It is incredibly intelligent and emotionally autistic, a character type I like quite a bit.
9. I think Connor should have died at the end of S4 and that pulling their punch becasue they really liked VK and felt sory for the character was damned poor story-telling. Of course, had Connor actually died by Angel's hand, and mindwipe hadn't happened, S5 would be the darkest season ever. I don't really have a problem with that. I liked "Origin" a lot but wished Connor hadn't shown up in "Not Fade Away." I thought the ambiguity of "Origin" was good and that Connor in NFA didn't particularly serve a purpose.
10. I don't really care enough about Gunn to think that horrible things happened to his character at any point in canon.
11. I liked Lorne. Also Harmony.
12. They didn't die. They didn't survive. They're all still huddled in the alley, cold and wet and grieving Wesley, prepared to do the job they have to. World without end, in Joss's name, amen.
Buffy: the Vampire Slayer
1. S7 had some huge flaws in it, but I liked it anyhow.
2. S6 is one of my favorite seasons and I see no big flaws except of course the magic=crack one.
3. I don't give a damn about Spike except I miss the snark. I have absolutely no opinion on the attempted rape in "Seeing Red."
4. I like Tara an awful lot and while she might not be the most compelling character, she's beautiful and lovely and shy and so much like me that, despite knowing I shouldn't, I take it personally when people dislike her. Tara is the character who's most real to me because she is me. And I love her. While I can understand why people think the Willow/Tara relationship was poorly handled, I'm also a die-hard Willow/Tara shipper and I believe in their love. It might not have sizzled, but it was beautiful.
5. I thought Adam could've been interesting, but wasn't. (Probably not all that unpopular, except for the benefit of the doubt part.)
6. I think Xander/Anya was one of the best handled, most realistic relationships on the show. I don't think it was all about sex. I think that they, unlike 90% of the other characters, actually had a healthy attitude towards sex. Both of them enjoyed it and they had lots of it, but I don't think that was the sum of their relationship, and I don't think their arc was ended. Anya's death was a travesty. Killing someone because you need the approrpiate level of tragedy in your show's ending is not cool.
7. I loved the show a lot more before I got into fandom. But I can forgive the fen, because I'm learning a lot in fandom about how to think about media and art. Still, I miss being able to watch stuff uncritically. This is technically an opinion about fandom in general and not Buffy in particular but oh well.
8. I don't think I'm a particularly insensative or stupid person, but I didn't see Xander's treatment of Anya as abusive. I rather dread rewatching S6 for fear I'll see it and not love Xander anymore. I loved Xander so much when I first saw S6, far more than I loved Willow, and Willow is my emotional constant in the show.
9. I think Joyce was the First in "Convos."
10. I don't care whether or not Spike and Buffy had sex in "Chosen." I wanted to see more of the D+D.
General Jossverse:
1. I like Marti Noxon and Joss Whedon rather a lot. I like what I've seen of Joss Whedon's public persona. I think RPS/RPF isn't any less moral than saying that Marti Noxon a) is a whore b) needs therapy c) is emotionally unstable or that Joss Whedon a) has a deep-seated fear of women b) has issues with sex so large we need a book to explicate all of them or c) is a vicious sexist whose feminist persona is a big fat lie. We don't like personal attacks on fellow fans; why are they okay against TPTB? Especially since they wrote the frelling show for us. Also, I think Joss especially and the rest of the writers as well are artists.
2. Faith's entire arc moved too fast. I can understand it on further viewing and deep reflection, but on the shows, it moved too fast from bad girl to evil girl to redemption. Way too fast, way too much off-screen. That said, I think a Faith series could be good. And I'd watch, of course.
3. I'm a multi-shipper and proud. I like Wes/Lilah, Wes/Angel, and Wes/Fred, all for different reasons. And I like Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Willow/Giles, and Willow/Xander, all for very different reasons.
4. On a related note, I see everyone in Jossverse canon as bisexual, with a few possible exceptions that I can't think of at the moment.
5. I don't think Spike/Angel is all that interesting a pairing. I see the subtext, certainly, but it doesn't compel me the way other pairings do. I don't think that Spike's feelings for Angel (of love, hatred, envy, whatever) are as strong as many people seem to think. Angel has never been the center of Spike's universe: that was first Dru and then Buffy. They've certainly fucked at least once -- possibly several times -- but I don't think it was a defining relationship for either of them.
6. I think Angel is a more ambitious show that was occasionally brilliant and often a brilliant failure. Buffy was less ambitious and a more consistently solid show. And I enjoy watching Buffy more because it doesn't make me want to kill myself.
7. I would have preferred a full season of Firefly to S7 of Buffy, but only if they ran with the Kaylee/Inara subtext.
8. I wish they'd explored the ramifications of the mindwipe and of Dawn more articulately than they did, which might have redeemed both arcs in my mind.
9. I think the shows function better when there is a clear symbolic or metaphorical structure underlying the supernatural elements. This is because, oddly enough given what I do with most of my time, I'm not a genre person and don't especially enjoy sci-fi or fantasy. This is another reason I like Buffy as a show better: the demons are clearly articulated metaphors for the struggle of growing up. It's hokey, but it works, and it resonates with me on a level that demon pregnancy, evil law firms, and super secret circles of dark-colored plant barbs don't.
10. Cordelia and Angel aren't siblings. Cordelia and Wesley aren't siblings. Willow and Xander aren't siblings, and the word incest does not. Apply.
And just for kicks, twenty popular fannish opinions.
Angel
1. Connor/Cordelia is icky.
2. I liked Doyle and am sad that he died.
3. Grown-up Connor was very, very annoying and on the whole, I'm glad he wasn't in S5.
4. The end of S2 was very strange.
5. The Jasmine arc is confusing.
6. I wish Cordy had been in S5. Her arc was nowhere near over, and the show needed more female characters.
7. Season 5 was very, very gay.
8. There's lots of Wes/Angel subtext in S3-5.
9. Wesley is very pretty.
10. Gunn/Gwen was a pretty cool 'ship.
Buffy: the Vampire Slayer
1. I wanted to like Kennedy. I was honestly prepared to make a good faith effort to like her. I hated her on sight.
2. S7 had some major flaws, man.
3. Riley was boring.
4. Dawn was an annoying twit at times. Then she got cool. And learned Sumerian, somehow.
5. Giles is double plus good.
6. I like Oz.
7. I like Angelus.
8. "Gift," "Restless," and "Once More, With Feeling" are frelling amazing works of art.
9. Wesley is annoying in S3 of Buffy. but on rewatching, Giles is a bastard to him.
10. The SFX is S1 leave something to be desired.
[spoilers through NFA]
Angel
1. I like Fred and think that, despite the fact that she was never the focal point even of her own arc, she was a well-crafted, interesting, beautiful character and I love her. A lot. So there.
2. I think Wes's feelings for Fred are at least half based on his own ideals about what love and romance should be, that they could probably never be happy together because both come with so much baggage and because their relationship is so tainted with so many issues, and that, despite that, there is a kernel of rightness in their relationship, of attraction and friendship and love and desire, that transcends all the horrible dren that's associated with their relationship. In other words, yes, shameless Wes/Fred shipper.
3. I didn't think I would ever like Angel/Cordelia, was vaguely squicked and confused by the idea of it, and will say endlessly and forever that they are Just Friends. Until S3. And then Joss sold me on their love hook, line, and sinker. I think their love for each other is far more mature than Angel's love for Buffy ever was, that they are a pair of friends who've made a life together, who have compatible personalities, and who love each other deeply. I think their mystical connection as Seer and Hero is beautiful (I think the same of Angel/Doyle, of course, and Giles/Buffy and various other pairings) and love the way it slowly bloomed into romance. I loved Offspring-Provider. Squeed my way through. Or, in other words, yes, shameless Angel/Cordy shipper too.
4. I think Gunn and Fred truly loved each other and were cute together. I'm not sad that their ship ended, because I don't think it ever really could have lasted, but in another time or another place, it could have. I'm sad that the 'ship was mishandled and treated just as a means to break Wesley, as was Fred's entire arc.
5. I think Cordelia was still controlling the body until "Spin the Bottle," when she started to act weirdly but wasn't quite sure why. I vaguely suspect it wasn't till she was impregnated that the post-hypnotic suggestion really started kicking in, but I think Cordelia was still aware of herself as a concious agent at least part of the time until around "Calvary." I quite like the idea, not mine, that a large part of pod!Cordy's personality comes from Cordelia's idea of what a villain should be rather than from Jasmine.
6. I dislike both the evil!Cordy arc and the Illyria arc, despite adoring evil characters, because both Cordy and Fred were robbed of their agency. The arcs revolve around the other characters reacting to the evil entities posessing the bodies, not the characters' own inner darkness or the way they deal with the evil within. I think the Cordy arc can be redeemed by retconning, but the Illyria arc was just a poor choice, despite showing off AA's acting ability.
7. I think Joss should have left incarnation theology well enough alone given that he's a practicing athiest, but I respect that it's his story to tell, and given his distrust of organized religion, the Jasmine-arc isn't all bad.
8. I like Fred better than Illyria. I like Illyria too, but think Its arc was poorly handled and a bad choice given the givens (they had to move all their plotlines up a notch after the cancellation.) I like Illyria in ats_nolimits better than canon Illyria becasue she/It is incredibly intelligent and emotionally autistic, a character type I like quite a bit.
9. I think Connor should have died at the end of S4 and that pulling their punch becasue they really liked VK and felt sory for the character was damned poor story-telling. Of course, had Connor actually died by Angel's hand, and mindwipe hadn't happened, S5 would be the darkest season ever. I don't really have a problem with that. I liked "Origin" a lot but wished Connor hadn't shown up in "Not Fade Away." I thought the ambiguity of "Origin" was good and that Connor in NFA didn't particularly serve a purpose.
10. I don't really care enough about Gunn to think that horrible things happened to his character at any point in canon.
11. I liked Lorne. Also Harmony.
12. They didn't die. They didn't survive. They're all still huddled in the alley, cold and wet and grieving Wesley, prepared to do the job they have to. World without end, in Joss's name, amen.
Buffy: the Vampire Slayer
1. S7 had some huge flaws in it, but I liked it anyhow.
2. S6 is one of my favorite seasons and I see no big flaws except of course the magic=crack one.
3. I don't give a damn about Spike except I miss the snark. I have absolutely no opinion on the attempted rape in "Seeing Red."
4. I like Tara an awful lot and while she might not be the most compelling character, she's beautiful and lovely and shy and so much like me that, despite knowing I shouldn't, I take it personally when people dislike her. Tara is the character who's most real to me because she is me. And I love her. While I can understand why people think the Willow/Tara relationship was poorly handled, I'm also a die-hard Willow/Tara shipper and I believe in their love. It might not have sizzled, but it was beautiful.
5. I thought Adam could've been interesting, but wasn't. (Probably not all that unpopular, except for the benefit of the doubt part.)
6. I think Xander/Anya was one of the best handled, most realistic relationships on the show. I don't think it was all about sex. I think that they, unlike 90% of the other characters, actually had a healthy attitude towards sex. Both of them enjoyed it and they had lots of it, but I don't think that was the sum of their relationship, and I don't think their arc was ended. Anya's death was a travesty. Killing someone because you need the approrpiate level of tragedy in your show's ending is not cool.
7. I loved the show a lot more before I got into fandom. But I can forgive the fen, because I'm learning a lot in fandom about how to think about media and art. Still, I miss being able to watch stuff uncritically. This is technically an opinion about fandom in general and not Buffy in particular but oh well.
8. I don't think I'm a particularly insensative or stupid person, but I didn't see Xander's treatment of Anya as abusive. I rather dread rewatching S6 for fear I'll see it and not love Xander anymore. I loved Xander so much when I first saw S6, far more than I loved Willow, and Willow is my emotional constant in the show.
9. I think Joyce was the First in "Convos."
10. I don't care whether or not Spike and Buffy had sex in "Chosen." I wanted to see more of the D+D.
General Jossverse:
1. I like Marti Noxon and Joss Whedon rather a lot. I like what I've seen of Joss Whedon's public persona. I think RPS/RPF isn't any less moral than saying that Marti Noxon a) is a whore b) needs therapy c) is emotionally unstable or that Joss Whedon a) has a deep-seated fear of women b) has issues with sex so large we need a book to explicate all of them or c) is a vicious sexist whose feminist persona is a big fat lie. We don't like personal attacks on fellow fans; why are they okay against TPTB? Especially since they wrote the frelling show for us. Also, I think Joss especially and the rest of the writers as well are artists.
2. Faith's entire arc moved too fast. I can understand it on further viewing and deep reflection, but on the shows, it moved too fast from bad girl to evil girl to redemption. Way too fast, way too much off-screen. That said, I think a Faith series could be good. And I'd watch, of course.
3. I'm a multi-shipper and proud. I like Wes/Lilah, Wes/Angel, and Wes/Fred, all for different reasons. And I like Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Willow/Giles, and Willow/Xander, all for very different reasons.
4. On a related note, I see everyone in Jossverse canon as bisexual, with a few possible exceptions that I can't think of at the moment.
5. I don't think Spike/Angel is all that interesting a pairing. I see the subtext, certainly, but it doesn't compel me the way other pairings do. I don't think that Spike's feelings for Angel (of love, hatred, envy, whatever) are as strong as many people seem to think. Angel has never been the center of Spike's universe: that was first Dru and then Buffy. They've certainly fucked at least once -- possibly several times -- but I don't think it was a defining relationship for either of them.
6. I think Angel is a more ambitious show that was occasionally brilliant and often a brilliant failure. Buffy was less ambitious and a more consistently solid show. And I enjoy watching Buffy more because it doesn't make me want to kill myself.
7. I would have preferred a full season of Firefly to S7 of Buffy, but only if they ran with the Kaylee/Inara subtext.
8. I wish they'd explored the ramifications of the mindwipe and of Dawn more articulately than they did, which might have redeemed both arcs in my mind.
9. I think the shows function better when there is a clear symbolic or metaphorical structure underlying the supernatural elements. This is because, oddly enough given what I do with most of my time, I'm not a genre person and don't especially enjoy sci-fi or fantasy. This is another reason I like Buffy as a show better: the demons are clearly articulated metaphors for the struggle of growing up. It's hokey, but it works, and it resonates with me on a level that demon pregnancy, evil law firms, and super secret circles of dark-colored plant barbs don't.
10. Cordelia and Angel aren't siblings. Cordelia and Wesley aren't siblings. Willow and Xander aren't siblings, and the word incest does not. Apply.
And just for kicks, twenty popular fannish opinions.
Angel
1. Connor/Cordelia is icky.
2. I liked Doyle and am sad that he died.
3. Grown-up Connor was very, very annoying and on the whole, I'm glad he wasn't in S5.
4. The end of S2 was very strange.
5. The Jasmine arc is confusing.
6. I wish Cordy had been in S5. Her arc was nowhere near over, and the show needed more female characters.
7. Season 5 was very, very gay.
8. There's lots of Wes/Angel subtext in S3-5.
9. Wesley is very pretty.
10. Gunn/Gwen was a pretty cool 'ship.
Buffy: the Vampire Slayer
1. I wanted to like Kennedy. I was honestly prepared to make a good faith effort to like her. I hated her on sight.
2. S7 had some major flaws, man.
3. Riley was boring.
4. Dawn was an annoying twit at times. Then she got cool. And learned Sumerian, somehow.
5. Giles is double plus good.
6. I like Oz.
7. I like Angelus.
8. "Gift," "Restless," and "Once More, With Feeling" are frelling amazing works of art.
9. Wesley is annoying in S3 of Buffy. but on rewatching, Giles is a bastard to him.
10. The SFX is S1 leave something to be desired.