Hey fellas--

[weizenwind]

Those of you on here that I've met seem either to have this stuff down or have made reasonable choices to do things differently, but I'd bet money that you know someone who could use this advice:

http://www.bebetterguys.com/

Perfect? Of course not. But I think it does do a pretty good job of clueing in guys who could really use some clues.

Comments

[suthrncan]

Yes but how do you draw his attention to it without insulting him?

[weizenwind]

Oy. Well, without knowing about the situation I couldn't say. Of course, the ideal would be if he brought something up ("why can't I get a date?" "my apartment smells--wonder why?"), and you could come to the rescue. But failing that, I'd say it would depend on your relationship with the person whether a fairly direct approach would be ok or whether you might want to enlist the help of a mutual friend who might be more listened to.

Good luck!

[riurik]

I find that website annoyingly sexist. I'm interested in being a better person, a better friend, a better librarian, a better citizen, and a better a lot of things, but not a better "guy." Being one sex or the other shouldn't be an entrepreneurial venture, it should just be a fact. The last thing I exist for is to be attractive AS a male, because being attractive AS a male is too generic, makes everything that makes me an individual irrelevant. I'm sure if you switch it around you know exactly what I'm saying.

[weizenwind]

Yeah, I know what you're saying. And of course everyone should focus on being better people as opposed to being better "men" or "women." On the other hand, I see that there are an awful lot of men out there who are too hung up on being "men" as opposed to "people" to be interested in advice directed at humanity. Men who are clued-in enough to know that taking care of themselves and giving a shit about how they come across to others doesn't make them "girly" are not the target of this site. When this ran as part of a story in The Seattle Times, there were an awful lot of responses from men who insisted that the site was bad because it was out to take away their manhood. Seems to me, it's blockheads like this who could use a guy--not a gf, not a wife, not a mother--telling them that actually, washing your face and cycling out the shredded underwear now and then do not automatically turn you gay and/or female, and that in fact, men and women around you will appreciate these efforts

[riurik]

I definitely see what you are saying. However, I can't help thinking of men in history, the ones I tend to admire, who were pretty unconcerned with these things and pretty unconcerned with dating as well. I feel, personally, that the to extent that I shave every morning, brush my teeth twice a day, dress carefully, etc., I am not doing something that I'm in any way morally obligated to do but rather doing something that satisfies my own vanity and satisfies social expectations that I think a lot of people are right to rebel against. Well, maybe not brushing my teeth - that's for health. Well, okay, a lot of the things on the site pertain to health, and that's undeniably important. But standards for dressing, etc.... I can't hear them discussed as some kind of an obligation without thinking about how these standards come about in society, what they mean sociologically, what they support and don't support, etc. If I had the strength to be anything I wanted, any way that I wanted to be, I think I would choose to be an antisocial genius

[weizenwind]

Well, yes. If you don't care whether other people want to spend time with you, you can do exactly as your instincts tell you, provided you don't break too many laws. This website is not for you. However, for the hoards of men who do want to be social and don't understand how their behavior might be inhibiting their realization of that wish, it seems like this might be useful.

[dayakara]

I found that site amusing, but don't know if I'd seriously recommend it. Being "perfect" gets you great admiration and a nice gold star from the teacher, but that doesn't particularly translate to getting dates from what I've witnessed.

[weizenwind]

I dunno, I got the impression that it was just sort of offering a menu of stuff that some guys may never have thought about or learned. I didn't get the impression that anyone was supposed to follow every rule in order to achieve enlightenment, but given how many guys have sort of sheepishly asked me, "so...what is _______ for?" I would think that it would be nice to be able to find the answers to that somewhere other than Martha Stewart or the gf they might not have. I doubt there are many guys for whom all of this is news, but I also doubt that there are many guys for whom *none* of it is news.

[dayakara]

I guess it's all degrees. Like while I can cook pretty well, I don't know the proper table setting for hor d'oeuvres forks and whether the water of wine glass is placed on the inside toward the plate. ;-)

But if someone isn't doing the minimal stuff here (like bathing, for God's sake), I'm under the impression that it's more that they really don't care than because they don't know how.

Also I hate to say that I haven't met many women who truly value their guy dressing fashionably or being able to whip a souffle or whatever, as much as they might swear that that's what they're looking for. Unfortunately, it's not just some men who see some of all this as being somehow effeminate. Of course, I could be perennially stuck amongst the wrong crowd. But in my dating experience, I've found it better to just keep some of my skills private, sad to say.

[weizenwind]

But in my dating experience, I've found it better to just keep some of my skills private, sad to say.

Interesting. I can see where you'd be coming from on this, since yes, some women seem to want to have expertise that their male partners lack.

On the other hand...you've lost me. If it's a skill you have, why hide it? Either you're good at something without particularly enjoying it, which, it seems to me, is just being versatile and doesn't say anything about who you are, or you're good at something and you enjoy it, and do you really want to date someone who would judge you for that? I mean, maybe don't start conversation of your first date with, "Have I mentioned that I've won awards for my embroidery skills?" but if it's a relationship that will last a while it seems really strange to me to tolerate someone who wouldn't accept that part of you, if not celebrate it.