i can't get enough of this local color!

[walkingshadow]

when it came to writing up my reactions to my most recent viewing of SGA season one, i started ranting again about everyone in the pegasus galaxy being JERKS, because i get so worked up during "underground" and "the storm/the eye." PEOPLE IN THE PEGASUS GALAXY ARE JERKS, i wrote in all-caps in my notes. (i took notes! of course i took notes. jules

Comments

[zincpiccalilli]

Wow! What a fascinating post! I don't have much to add, but I'll try anyways. :)

it's unclear how much contact there is, on average, between the worlds

Another factor that contributes to the isolation of many Pegasus cultures is the fact that so many of the galaxy's stargates seem to be located in space. Off the top of my head, I count the Wraith planet from "Rising" and "Thirty-Eight Minutes," Proculus, Doranda from "Trinity," the planet in "Instinct," and Edwin in "The Hive."

As cjandre and I discussed how the Wraith limited technological development in Pegasus, I figured if the Wraith had some criteria for when they needed to wipe out a civilization for being too advanced, the line would probably be drawn at refined space travel as their power depends so much on air superiority and the untouchability of the hive ships. Without spaceships, there's no access to these worlds, and I have to wonder whether many learned this lesson the hard way-by sending people through the stargate and seeing if they ever returned alive as opposed to dying

[walkingshadow]

hi there! and wow, you've given me tons to think about in return.

Another factor that contributes to the isolation of many Pegasus cultures is the fact that so many of the galaxy's stargates seem to be located in space.

YES. i thought about this too, but i'm not sure exactly what it means. i like your wraith-removal theory, though the ancients had their puddlejumpers and it would have been all the same to them; i also think it would take a much more delicate and time-consuming operation to uproot the gate, unharmed, and set it in orbit still functioning; if i were actually in the pegasus galaxy i could test your theory by searching nearby planets for a gate-less DHD or evidence of its removal! it would make sense for the wraith to limit, absolutely, all space-ready technology, but from what we've seen they stop development well in advance of that—i.e. no pegasus civilization has made it anywhere near that level.

Without spaceships, there's no access to these worlds, and I have to wonder whether many learned this lesson the hard way

[zincpiccalilli]

hi there! and wow, you've given me tons to think about in return.

I say we ponder over the mysteries of SGA together! ^_____^

i also think it would take a much more delicate and time-consuming operation to uproot the gate, unharmed, and set it in orbit still functioning...

Agreed. Since I never watched SG-1 and SGA usually takes the stargates for granted, I have no idea what would need to be done in order to move a stargate into space without trashing it. I gather that the stargates are pretty durable though, and the Wraith have already demonstrated a certain facility with Ancient technology (notably in "The Defiant One"), so I think it'd be possible. Not only to control access to the stargate and cut off a means of escape or communication but to prevent the desperate from burying the thing or whatever.

Now that I think about it, assuming the Wraith could do it, putting the stargate in orbit is such a good idea there has to be an explanation for why there aren't more spacegates. Hmm.

makes me wonder how teyla et al. know which

[walkingshadow]

Not only to control access to the stargate and cut off a means of escape or communication but to prevent the desperate from burying the thing or whatever.

"aha!" i thought. "what a great idea! why don't the pegasus humans do that? they're pretty desperate already." and then i remembered that the wraith don't actually use the stargates to descend upon the planets they're culling, they drive their big-ass hive ships through hyperspace and drop from the sky. as seen in "letters from pegasus" they then dial out from the planet's stargate to keep anyone from escaping.

Besides trial-and-error and knowledge passed down through the generations, all I could picture was a trained dog/bird/whatever that would go through the stargate and come back before the wormhole closed. It's that or a boomerang device of some sort...the MALP was really the logical action on the part of the SGC, a non-human first-toe-in-the-pond. but even animals and boomerangs wouldn't work: wormholes only go one way; you can't go through and then back without waiting for

[zincpiccalilli]

and then the earth expedition shows up, interlopers from another galaxy entirely who move in like they have a right to, like the second coming...

Well, I don't think the Atlantis expedition is trying to be arrogant. The root of their diplomatic gaffes is ignorance (and letting Sheppard negotiate so much, never mind having him and McKay on the same off-world team). They simply don't know any better, and the reception most of the Pegasus galaxy gives them doesn't help them learn.

And, frankly, the neo-Atlanteans (that's a great name!) probably do have the best chance of working the technologies of Atlantis and whatever else the Ancients left behind. They've got the ATA gene, which is apparently the product of more evolution, and the benefit of knowledge developed without the threat of the Wraith hanging over them. I think the fact that they're willing to trade all this spectacular science and technology, plus favors, for food, shelter, any help against the Wraith, and other mundane things is a pretty convincing show of good will

[walkingshadow]

i don't think they're trying to be arrogant either! i want to think the absolute best of them, and people really do need to point out the overall colonial mindset, etc.; i would tend to take the show at something much closer to face value. but whether or not they're trying to be arrogant—actually, whether or not they *are* arrogant—is irrelevant, because that's how it keeps coming across to the pegasus natives (and we need a word for them too). whatever their intentions, they need to change their approach.

I think the fact that they're willing to trade all this spectacular science and technology, plus favors, for food, shelter, any help against the Wraith, and other mundane things is a pretty convincing show of good will.

that's what gets me ranting in the first place—that they come in peace (oh my god, i just typed that unironically), they're honestly looking for friends and help, and they have the city of atlantis at their disposal, and the genii et al. (but especially the genii) don't say "awesome, an ally," they think "must

[zincpiccalilli]

...they come in peace (oh my god, i just typed that unironically), they're honestly looking for friends and help, and they have the city of atlantis at their disposal, and the genii et al. (but especially the genii) don't say "awesome, an ally," they think "must humiliate and destroy. oh, they mentioned explosives, let's steal that first."LOL. There are a few hints that the neo-Atlanteans are trying to change their approach to first contact. For one, though Sheppard, as leader of the flagship exploration team, is still responsible for the first meeting with many civilizations, he defers to Weir on actually making trade arrangements in S2. John's a smart boy but, really, he fails at negotiation. Most notably in "Underground" and "The Storm," both of which brought the Genii down on their heads. I like to think all off-world teams now make contact and see if anyone's interested in trading, then report back to Weir. Depending on initial impressions and this first exchange, Weir might go off-world to broker a deal. This, I think, is a

[walkingshadow]

though Sheppard, as leader of the flagship exploration team, is still responsible for the first meeting with many civilizations, he defers to Weir on actually making trade arrangements in S2. John's a smart boy but, really, he fails at negotiation. Most notably in "Underground" and "The Storm,"

actually, we haven't seen that much first contact in S2. i haven't seen "epiphany" or "critical mass" yet, so if we have first contact there, don't tell me; but out of the first eleven episodes, only "condemned" and "instinct" were classic sheppard's team goes offworld and tries to make nice. sheppard didn't get a chance to negotiate with anyone in "condemned" (though eventually he made a good show of bargaining for their lives); and i don't remember what kind of negotiation they were looking to do in "instinct," but that's kinda the point—they were distracted by greater events. do you just mean that since we haven't seen sheppard doing any negotiation, he must be leaving it to weir

[one_in_progress]

Got here from the SGA newsletter.

In SG1 the most advanced cultures are the least willing to share their technology with us because they've seen the destructiveness caused when they've given advanced technology away in the past, to cultures who haven't used how to not use it to destroy others and themselves, so from that perspective it makes sense that the Ancients would be careful about sharing their technology. If everyone's fighting with each other, a la earth, that's pretty bad too (as Beckett sort of implies in Poisoning the Well).

Also, considering that it seems like the wraith can read minds, that would lead people to be very secretive about who they share what information with, especially information about their technology level or plans for resistance.

[walkingshadow]

In SG1 the most advanced cultures are the least willing to share their technology with us because they've seen the destructiveness caused when they've given advanced technology away in the past

i can see that—though it's still exclusive and snobbish and paternalistic. and once the wraith came, that threat was so massive and immediate that i would think eradicating them would override any concerns about what the humans might do with the technology otherwise, after the fact; except that the ancients were so (in their own words) overconfident that they didn't feel it was a compromise they had to make.

Also, considering that it seems like the wraith can read minds, that would lead people to be very secretive about who they share what information with, especially information about their technology level or plans for resistance.good point. though (to play devil's advocate here) it's hard to say whether the humans know about that particular talent in the first place; and since it only works in very close contact (i.e. after capture), i don

[one_in_progress]

Hmm, re the first point.

If the ancients did decide that the urgency required sharing their tech (and they did admit to being over confident) and there was time to do so, that has its own dangers. Because the wraith are really good at acquiring and adapting ancient technology. Maybe they were afraid of the technology like the galactic hyper drive engines and strongest weapons falling into wraith hands?

Thanks for your post and this discussion! I love talking about Atlantis...

[walkingshadow]

Maybe they were afraid of the technology like the galactic hyper drive engines and strongest weapons falling into wraith hands?

that could certainly be the case. but if you're the ancients, at some point don't you have to consider the possibility that losing your monopoly over your shiny technology takes a backseat to, you know, defeating your life-sucking enemies? if you're the ancients obviously you *didn't* have to, but then—you lost. overconfident and control freaks.

heh, i could talk about this stuff ALL DAY. thank you!

[neth_dugan]

It's been said in above comments.

Though, one thing, in 'Hot Zone' I'm pretty sure the geeks concluded that the nano-virus was of unknown origin, as in not Ancient or Wraith. So, it wasn't something the original-Atlantians came up with.

[walkingshadow]

okay, i just re-watched "the hot zone" so i could get it straight

[zincpiccalilli]

Going to wade into this conversation here for a bit if you don't mind too much. :)

there's also the fact that at the super-text level the wraith and the ancients are presented as organic vs. artificial (i.e. mechanical, inorganic)...

Ah, but are they? ;)

Keep in mind that the Ancient technology initializes and often operates off a gene, responsive to thought and emotion-rather biological and organic concepts if you ask me. Plus, with the ATA gene and the hybrid interface, I definitely get the vibe that the Ancient technology might be aware, if not sharply sentient

[walkingshadow]

Ah, but are they? ;)

even after reading your arguments against—and they're all good points, on which i have been musing extensively—i'd have to say, yeah, they are. it's true that you don't get much more fundamentally biological than DNA-recognition technology, but keep in mind the actual practice of it: bloodless, sterile, cerebral. the technology recognizes your body, but it interacts with your mind; and in general the ancients seem to have continually bent their efforts toward complete dissociation from both their emotions and their physical bodies—i mean, their greatest goal and triumph was ascension.

it also makes sense on a super-text level to establish these kinds of dichotomies, even as they undermine them subtly. i don't know which of the wraith ships could be considered sleek except for the darts, which are what i would certainly call aerodynamic, but not sleek; and the inside of it was so dark and close and MEMBRANOUS that it couldn't have been more womb-like if they'd tried. i don't know if they were trying. the

[goddess09807]

*please keep in mid I'm basically fanwaking and I could be wrong* Well the way it works out to me is that there is a Pegasus Alliance in that they don't start wars with each other. And of course ceratin worlds have good relationships with with other world so if something were to happen, they would have thier back

[strina]

1) From what we see in The Brotherhood, people don't necessarily know the neo-Atlanteans aren't there legitimately.

2) The expedition's also ready to trade medical knowledge. And not all people take the Athosians' stance on technology. The Genii have been advancing steadily, if covertly, and the Hoffans chose to advance in fits and starts between cullings. And most Ancient tech needs someone with the gene to at least initialize it, and we've seen that the gene is rare in this galaxy; how much use would it be to the people of Pegasus?

3) It's only stealing if it belongs to someone. There are ZPMs they could have taken that they didn't, because someone was using them (the one on "planet kidkill", for example). What they're doing is more along the lines of grave-robbing, which, yes, isn't exactly admirable, but it is, in their eyes, necessary to their continued survival

[walkingshadow]

wow, you pointed out a bunch of things i never would have thought of. i especially liked your point that populations could be located *before* wraith attacks, thanks to atlantis's long-range sensors; as i mentioned below, i've always been uncomfortable with the blithe assumption that they could just bring people to atlantis if they needed to, but if in the future they could actually save whole planets from culling? that would be huge.

It's an alliance that comes at little or no cost, and could possibly carries incalcuable long-term benefits.

that's what it always comes back to for me. whether or not they like these people, what compels them to antagonism and sabotage when it would be so much easier (not to mention beneficial) to go the opposite way?

[walkingshadow]

okay, strina got here first and made all my points for me, but a couple of things:

Well the way it works out to me is that there is a Pegasus Alliance in that they don't start wars with each other. And of course ceratin worlds have good relationships with with other world so if something were to happen, they would have thier back.first of all, that's not an alliance—that's a non-aggression pact. and secondly, they don't have a non-aggression pact. maybe they're too busy dreading and then hiding and dying from the wraith to pick fights with other planets (there's also the part where they don't seem to *have* that much contact with each other, and are spread too thinly to rub up against each other all the time; and the fact that they just don't have the population to wage large-scale—or even small-scale—wars), but we've heard the genii say explicitly that they're perfectly happy with the wraith culling other peoples as long as they (the wraith) leave them (the genii) alone; and hoff was also happy to make themselves immune to the wraith at